A mandolin/violin relative price story

[erick]

Tonight I played a regular local club gig with my swing band, and we had a guest violinist, a woman well-known in the community as a fine classical player. She was playing an instrument inherited from her grandfather, and it was one of the loudest violins I'd ever heard. I'd brought along a DPA 4099 mic to attach to her violin, which she steadfastly refused to do, despite my assurances that it wouldn't harm the finish. I told her I was using one on my Red Diamond mandolin, which was an expensive instrument and had a varnish finish ( just like her violin) and she still refused. I didn't press it and the instrument was so loud a mic was hardly necessary , so we got through the gig and she played really well.

i asked her a little about the violin and she said it was a Ruggieri, which I'd never heard of, but when I got home I looked them up. Turns out that that these instruments are near the top of the violin food chain, and one sold recently for over $300K ! So, I guess I'm glad I'm not a violin player...

Anyway, it was an interesting perspective on the relative costs of instruments that make us really happy, and really broke, unless you happen to have the right grandfather....

[Charles E.]

It makes me smile to think of people here agonizing over spending $35.oo on a Bluechip pick when most professional violinist will have to pay $2,000.oo to $5,000.oo (on average) for a violin bow.

[Ranald]

Yeah, but you never have to replace a violin bow, nor are you going to lose it in the depths of the couch. Still, I spend far less on picks than I do on re-hairing my bow, about once a year, at about $90 a shot. Professionals would be getting the bow re-haired a few times a year. In theory, the hair comes from Mongolian stallions, because Mongolian horses have the strongest tail hairs, and the mares are constantly urinating on and weakening their tails. My luthier tells me that the hairs he purchases are supposed to have such a source, but he has no idea whether this is true. I doubt that my grandfather, who, as a sailor in Cape Breton, took up fiddle in the early 20th century, was getting hair from Mongolian stallions. More likely, he persuaded his neighbour to let him trim his horse's tail, or perhaps raided the stable at night.

[pops1]

If you are picky when you buy hair for bows you buy unbleached white hair. So only white horses. There is a difference in texture of white, salt and pepper, and black. I have had fiddle players (for Irish music) want black, but mostly it is for bass bows.

[Bob A]

Peccatte bow; $86,000.

https://www.martinswanviolins.com/do...-violin-bow-3/

[Br1ck]

Rule of thumb, bow is 1/3 the cost of your violin. My wife ran a youth symphony that toured Europe, and she had to have documentation for every instrument. Now these were serious high school age musicians. Average violin price, $22,000. That will be an instrument that could see you through concervatory. A cheap professional instrument starts around $60,000.

Finer fiddles make Loars feel like bargains.

[AHoyle]

So true I’m not a violinist, but my wife is and I know the cost of maintaining the things are more than all of my instruments combined. I don’t see mandolins as expensive any more when a new mando sell between 4K to 12k and on the used market for half the price they are new. Just imagine if mandolins were valued the same way violins are, and realize (as I have just recently) that we’re living in a great time for musicians there’s good instruments being made in every price range for all kinds and styles of music. What a time to be alive and playing mandolin

[HonketyHank]

... What a time to be alive and playing mandolin

Very true on lots of different levels.

[Bob Buckingham]

As a long time fiddler who also plays mandolin you guys are opening up some of the dark secrets of the violin world. But a lot of fiddlers I know do not play Ruggeri or Amati or other fiddles of that caliber. They do spend as much and sometimes more than that spent on upper end mandolins, but they also understand that the bow is half of their instrument so they have no heart burn spending what they need to get the bow that they need to get the sound and playability they seek. A lot of bows sell for under $1000 and can easily sail upward from there. But many fiddlers I know use carbon fiber bows or good wood bows that cost less than a grand. I recently interviewed a well known old time fiddler who used a revoiced Chinese fiddle, and one of my favorites is a nearly 70 year old better student grade fiddle that I bought for less than $200. It is loud and sings like crazy and proves the point it ain't the bucks it is the bang that counts.

[Jack Roberts]

Rule of thumb, bow is 1/3 the cost of your violin. ....

Ha! My bow was a little costly, but my violin was free. It's very expensive to replace the strings on my violin, though, and I've spent more money at the luthier on the violn than any mandolin. At least we don't have to refret our violins!

Violins sound bad in my hands no matter how much they cost, but I do love playing fiddle and mandolin.

[Paul Busman]

It makes me smile to think of people here agonizing over spending $35.oo on a Bluechip pick when most professional violinist will have to pay $2,000.oo to $5,000.oo (on average) for a violin bow.

I don't understand why violin bows can be SO expensive. People talk about better volume,tone,responsiveness etc. Weight and balance I can understand but why should those other factors vary so much. Basically, a bow is "just" a bundle of horse hair attached at each end to a semi flexible stick.I understand the cost of materials can vary a lot but as long as that bundle of horse hair is adjusted to the same tension on the bow,why should one bow be so radically more costly than another?

[catndahats]

sipping coffee this fine Saturday morning, and came across this thread.

I know nada about violins, and wow this thread is an eye opener; kinda the same place I was a couple years ago learning about mandolins.

My wife is a piano / guitar player, and recently got an itch for violin. I had no idea the typical violin / bow was so expensive....gee, I'm just now getting adjusted to good mandolin -vs- good guitar prices.

Quick question: Is there a good "violin forum" along the lines of mandolincafe or the other guitar forums that you frequent?

Was going to visit our local violin shop today, but wow these prices are scary high. Hope a decent starter set is considerably less $$$.

[ccravens]

Quick question: Is there a good "violin forum" along the lines of mandolincafe or the other guitar forums that you frequent?

https://www.fiddlehangout.com/

[Mandolin Cafe]

I don't understand why violin bows can be SO expensive. People talk about better volume,tone,responsiveness etc. Weight and balance I can understand but why should those other factors vary so much. Basically, a bow is "just" a bundle of horse hair attached at each end to a semi flexible stick.I understand the cost of materials can vary a lot but as long as that bundle of horse hair is adjusted to the same tension on the bow,why should one bow be so radically more costly than another?

Never tire of seeing you wade into these discussions while linking to your site where you sell $300+ penny whistles. Not criticizing the price, mind you, and I've seen your reactions to our pointing this out before. It is what it is. Carry on.

[onassis]

Was going to visit our local violin shop today, but wow these prices are scary high. Hope a decent starter set is considerably less $$$

It doesn't have to be crazy expensive, any more than the mandolin does. In fact, I would say it's far easier to find a good inexpensive fiddle than it is to find a comparable mandolin. Fiddles have been produced in such volume for such a long time that there are always decent fiddles around. You just have to know where to look. If you know any local old-time fiddlers, they usually seem to know people who have them for sale by the dozen.

[catndahats]

thanks guys----I appreciate you guys a bunch. My post was sorta off-topic, but again thanks for the input. Love this place!

[Ranald]

Was going to visit our local violin shop today, but wow these prices are scary high. Hope a decent starter set is considerably less $$$.

Don't take this discussion of prices too seriously. It's a bit like deciding you can't buy a car after seeing on a website that some cars sell for as much as a million dollars, and that a part for those cars can cost $20,000, or like choosing not to go to hotels because you heard that a hotel room can cost $1,500 a night. I can almost guarantee you, that the fiddler you're seeing at the local jam doesn't have a violin worth $10,000 or a bow worth $2,000. I play my grandfather's fiddle, evaluated at about $1,800 in the 1970's. Luthiers tell me it's worth about the same now. I bought a good bow at the same time, made of a no longer available wood, which cost about $200 (I paid in instalments), but would probably be worth more now if I hadn't chipped it. I have no desire to change either item. A beginner can buy a decent violin for considerably less, perhaps $500 -- a little more for a keeper -- and get a beginners bow for less than a hundred. I'm not a concert violinist, and do not have perfect pitch, so I'm happy with what I have. Graham Townsend, an outstanding Canadian fiddler, who played some fine old violins by European masters (he bought them relatively cheaply from a WWII soldier, who purchased them in France), played my fiddle, complimented it, and made it sound very good. As "onassis" says above (post #12), there are many good second-hand violins to be had at cheap prices, though if you go to thrift shops, it's helpful if you can visit them with someone who knows a great deal about the structure of violins. Unfortunately, violins at thrift stores are usually out of tune, short a couple of strings, and lacking rosin and perhaps a bow. In Canada, I 'd be thinking of $750 - $1,000 for a decent fiddle that you might never want to replace. However, if you're concert master with an international orchestra, you'll have different standards.

re bows: There is a great difference in bows, and, as with picks, the choice of which you prefer is personal. I can't really explain why one bow is good and another not, or one is good for me while another is not, but give me a few bows to try out and I notice considerable difference. I've never had the nerve to go into the violin shop and test a $20,000 bow. If I ever become a $20,000 player, I might.

[Bob Buckingham]

I don't understand why violin bows can be SO expensive. People talk about better volume,tone,responsiveness etc. Weight and balance I can understand but why should those other factors vary so much. Basically, a bow is "just" a bundle of horse hair attached at each end to a semi flexible stick.I understand the cost of materials can vary a lot but as long as that bundle of horse hair is adjusted to the same tension on the bow,why should one bow be so radically more costly than another?

They are way more than a bundle of horse hair... they are precisely handmade, balanced fulcrums that enable the user to execute passages, fast and slow on this stick that is not, does not act like and does not work like a pick. You pick and string and get an immediate response. You bow a string and you get a micro second delay then a response. There is an art to making bows and they are far more sophisticated than picks.

[foldedpath]

I don't understand why violin bows can be SO expensive.

As I understand it, part of the high cost of a quality bow is that Pernambuco wood is considered *the* most desirable wood for a high-end bow, and the trees are nearing extinction. There are re-planting efforts but I don't know how successful they are. Export is likely to be banned soon.

I've heard of one bow maker that stopped making bows, because they had worked their way through the stash of Pernambuco they had stockpiled over the years. Apparently nothing else was suitable as a replacement, at least for that bow maker.

That isn't the only factor in the high cost of fiddle bows; the reputation of the individual bow maker is also a big part of it. But it's one reason for the cost.

[Bob A]

As I understand it, part of the high cost of a quality bow is that Pernambuco wood is considered *the* most desirable wood for a high-end bow, and the trees are nearing extinction. There are re-planting efforts but I don't know how successful they are. Export is likely to be banned soon.

Also only a very small amount of pernambuco is suitable for bow production.

[Caleb]

Cool thread...

The fiddle/violin is my favorite instrument, though I can't play one to save my life. I just can't get the posture down or get used to holding my left hand out like that.

Years ago I got my wife a violin setup (case, bow included) from Stephen Perry for about 5 bills. I am a pretty good judge of tone in acoustic instruments, and to me the thing sounds flat out amazing. Sometimes I'll just drag the bow across the strings to hear it ring out.

I enjoy cruising YouTube and finding videos of fiddlers vs listening to classical violin players (though I also listen to Hilary Hahn, et al, sometimes too). I have often wondered if violinists/fiddlers critique the tone of other instruments the way we mandolinists and guitarists do? It's easy to spot a lousy mandolin/guitar even in the hands of a great player. But most of the time, to me at least, a fiddle sounds great as long as the player is decent. And sometimes, again, to me at least, the more homespun the playing style, the more I seem to like it.

I watched some stuff on Punch Bros once and they were talking about their instruments. Thile, Noam and Chris all have very expensive instruments, but Gabe was talking about how he plays a regular old German-made fiddle. He gets a great sound out of it.

[allenhopkins]

My old band shared a benefit concert program with a classical cellist about 30 years ago. (Also on the bill was Lou Gramm of Foreigner, doing a solo acoustic set.) Talking with the cellist after the gig, she said her instruments was an 18th century Italian cello, a Guarneri if I remember correctly, that had sold for $350K to a Philadelphia syndicate that was loaning it to her for performances.

Maybe that's the secret for my finally obtaining a Lloyd Loar F-5 -- finding a group of people who'll pool their resources, buy one, and then just let me use it.

Good luck with that idea...

[Louise NM]

Once you get into the antique market, prices for violins and bows skyrocket. A year or so ago, a Tourte bow sold at auction for $687,000. Prices around $200,000 are common. New ones? I don't remember seeing anything at or over $10K. Just like a signed Lloyd Loar, prices climb with provenance and age.

Making bows is every bit as much of an art as making instruments, and matching a bow to a violin is just as particular as matching a pick and a mandolin. I don't understand why, but it's nowhere near as simple as it may look. Different bows draw a very different tone out of the same instrument. They all handle a little differently, and yes, there's a huge difference between a $500 bow, a $1500 one, and a $7000 one. Like with anything else, the law of diminishing returns kicks in at some point, and every player has to decide where they can be content.

They have made huge advances in making carbon fiber bows over the last 20 years or so, and the best of them are very, very good. There are many players who will probably never want or need anything else. Pernambuco bows, though, are still the standard everything else is measured against.

[Tom Wright]

I sold my tired Sartory viola bow for $5,000, and used a $500 Coda bow until I retired. I will say the 100-year-old French bow had a pretty sound but the Coda had better control of expression. Tone was pretty good, not great.

The tone yielded by a bow, aside from its dynamic response, is mainly the result of what frequencies the material absorbs and dissipates. Some frequency ranges may get reflected by the material, emphasizing that timbre, but the main job is to have a material that does not soak up tone. A bowmaker I knew bought a major pile of pernambuco and then chose pieces by testing for speed of sound as an indication of hardness and elasticity.

[LadysSolo]

I don't understand why violin bows can be SO expensive. People talk about better volume,tone,responsiveness etc. Weight and balance I can understand but why should those other factors vary so much. Basically, a bow is "just" a bundle of horse hair attached at each end to a semi flexible stick.I understand the cost of materials can vary a lot but as long as that bundle of horse hair is adjusted to the same tension on the bow,why should one bow be so radically more costly than another?

It DOES make a difference! I expressed some years ago about wanting to learn violin, so my partner bought me a "starter" violin for Christmas. I worked with it for awhile, and we were at an auction a few months later where they were auctioning a violin. One of the family members played it a bit (it was an estate auction,) and it sounded fabulous! I bought it for $150, brought it home, and tried the bow on my starter violin. The starter violin sounded 100% better! So the bow CAN make a big difference!