22.75" scale length 6 string guitar to DGDADA or CGDAEB

[Baron Collins-Hill]

Hi everyone,

I just pulled the trigger on a short scale (22.75") six string that I want to try some alternate tunings on and thought I would see if anyone had string gauge recommendations for such tunings. The tunings I am interested in are:

DGDADA
DADADA
CGDAEB

Does anyone have any suggestions or experience with this sort of thing?

Thanks!
Baron

[J.C. Bryant]

Baron, you are so helpful, I wish I could help you on this quest, but I can't. I am curious, though.. Are you going to play melodies or are you going to figure out (or maybe you already know) the chord forms as well? Just curious.

[Greg Ashton]

I play a low C tuning (CGCGCD) on guitar and wouldn't attempt it with anything less than a 25.5" scale length. You might try GGDADA at on a short scale.

[Baron Collins-Hill]

J.C. - Well, the deal actually fell through, but I was going to (and will eventually) do a little of both and approach it as an extended tenor guitar. Thinking further on the gauges, I had decided to try a 58 for the low D, then my standard 46 32 22 15 for GDAD and a 10 for the high A. These gauges all had tension at that scale at around 25 lbs, but we'll have to wait for the right instrument to come along for me to get a chance to try it. I'll keep you posted!

Greg - what gauge string do you use for your low C?

Thanks,
Baron

[foldedpath]

I agree with Greg above that if you're aiming for a low C on the 6th string, or even a low D, it doesn't make sense to aim for a shorter than standard guitar scale. Or a smaller tenor or parlor size body either, because you need a large enough resonant airmass to support notes as low as C or D on the bottom.

FWIW, I keep my 22.5" acoustic steel string in Drop-D tuning, using Elixer Nanoweb Light guage, and I replace the .053 low E string in that set with a .056 to give it enough "oomph." I love having that big fat D on the bottom for Irish/Scottish trad, because it can be used in so many of those fiddle tune keys. it's one of the things I miss with GDAE octave mandolin.

Is there a particular reason you're looking for a short scale guitar with these tunings? Unless you have fairly small hands, I don't think it's difficult to finger melody or chords on a standard guitar scale.

[Baron Collins-Hill]

Thanks for the info Folded Path. My reasoning for the shorter scale is to get that high A. Honestly the tuning this eventual instrument will end up in is likely DGDADA, the short scale making that A more feasible.

I do agree that longer scale lengths are usually better and are what I prefer. I'm not looking for a huge and booming low end D, and because I want to get into the mandola range on the top end and use mandolin fingering (which I use on 23" scale instruments) the short scale is where I am headed. One could potentially think of it as a fully single course extended waldzither or bouzouki, if that makes sense. Lots of cross picking and counter melodies and less big booming all-six-strings chord strums.

I think the perfect instrument would be a fan fret to give the bass a longer scale and the highs a shorter scale, but I'm not going to be able to find that in a reversible sub $1k project. If it really works and calls to me though, that would be a fun rabbit hole to go down.

Thanks,
Baron

[foldedpath]

Oh I see, you're aiming for mandolin fingering with 5ths intervals?

In that case, I'll mention something you may already know about, and that's a tuning John Doyle uses (or used to, he's more into bouzoukis now, I think). It sounds weird but it works on a standard scale guitar.

You put a a really heavy gauge on the bottom, and tune the guitar to BEBF#BF#. Then you capo at the 3rd fret, and you have DGDADA, the tuning you're shooting for. Basically a bouzouki tuning in the middle, with added low and high string. At capo 3 on a standard scale guitar, you've effectively reduced the scale length to something manageable in 5ths tuning.

You do need a monster string at the bottom to reach down to B. I think Doyle used a 0.072? Somewhere in the .060 range would probably still work.

I tried this tuning for a while on an old beater guitar, but I finally ditched it because I already had an octave mandolin and that seemed like a duplicate effort. I found I just preferred having the option of a Drop-D guitar or an OM as different voices for accompaniment or melody.

Anyway, if you haven't heard of this idea before, you might give it a shot. It's an easy way to get into a 6-string DGDADA tuning on any standard acoustic guitar, without having to find something in a short scale.

[multidon]

There is, of course, Robert Fripp’s New Standard Tuning. I wouldn’t think it would work on short scale though. If you’re not familiar with it, it starts on a low C and goes up in fifths until the highest string, which is a minor third higher. (CGDAEG). When he came up with it he really wanted all 5ths but was unable to find a thin enough string for the top B that didn’t keep snapping. G is the highest realistic note, and I think that might use a .008 if memory serves me right. That is a mighty thin string, and even with a G breakage is still an issue. But it’s something you can try on a standard guitar for an experiment and it’s torally reversible. Generally it does place more total tension on a guitar than standard tuning, and so truss rod adjustment will be necessary. There are sets available but you have to really look for them, or you can put together your own set using single strings while checking tensions eith sn on line string tension calculator, like D’Addario’s. You can see what tension your present set has, and then experiment by plugging in different alternate tunings and gauges. The goal would be to come as close as you can to matching the tensions that you know work on your instrument. Good luck in your quest.

[Baron Collins-Hill]

Thanks foldedpath and multidon.

folded - I didn't realize john used that tuning. I've seen him play a bunch and taught at the same camp as him for years, but never thought about his tuning (never got to sit in on his classes because I was teaching at the same time). I guess I am trying to go for the same idea except without the need for the capo and by losing access to the lower uncapo'd realms a long scale instrument would open up.

multi - I had heard of that tuning, but have never experimented with it. I did however, once hear a guitarist absentmindedly tune their standard tuning high E up to a G while trying to tune and create stage banter at the same time. I was more concerned with the string than the banter, but the string held somehow until he realized what he had done and brought it back down in a hurry. GHave me the shivers!

Thanks,
Baron