Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 74

Thread: How hard is it to do setup?

  1. #1

    Default How hard is it to do setup?

    Every once in a while I will see a post or ad that says the setup was done by [insert famous luthier].

    Should I care?

    Isn't setup a journeyman skill?
    Object to this post? Find out how to ignore me here!

  2. #2

    Default Re: How hard is it to do setup?

    There are some luthiers [insert famous luthier] who build fabulous mandolins but can only do a serviceable setup. There are some luthiers [insert not so well known luthier] who can't build an instrument at all but do fantastic setups. Perhaps it can be considered a journeyman skill to do a good setup but if you're good at it, players will beat a path to your door. It takes a lot of time and patience to develop good setup skills and to establish a widely known reputation for it.

    Len B.
    Clearwater, FL

  3. #3

    Default Re: How hard is it to do setup?

    Setup is no different than playing. Saying someone plays mandolin doesn't mean much. They may be a virtuoso, or barely play a few open chords. I like to compare it to cooking. Ever had your favorite meal ruined by a chef or have a chef make the best version you even tasted?

    A lot of it just depends on the depth of the setup as well. Setup often means adjusting the action, intonation, relief and checking screws and such. It can also mean 2 hours spent going over the frets, another 2 hours spent refitting and modifying the bridge and then going over everything else until it is as good as it can be. Maybe something like a $99 auto painting service vs. a $10k show car paint job. One, you pull the car in, they mask it off poorly, spray, and out the other end of the bay it goes. Show car paint job, they dismantle the car, perfect the body, do who knows how many coats of primer, color, clear-coat, each with sanding in between, etc...

    The violin world is where you hear more about setup experts.
    Robert Fear
    http://www.folkmusician.com

    "Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don't.
    " - Pete Seeger

  4. #4

    Default Re: How hard is it to do setup?

    I always thought it was just a matter of "Measure twice. Cut once."
    Object to this post? Find out how to ignore me here!

  5. The following members say thank you to JonZ for this post:


  6. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Edmonds, WA
    Posts
    446

    Default Re: How hard is it to do setup?

    Lots of luthiers build mandolins. A proper setup is a different set of skills and not all luthiers know how to do a good job of it. I like Robert Fear's analogy. For most instruments a thorough setup can be done with a modest toolset and accurate measurements before and after. With the nut height set properly, and the bridge/saddle adjusted for optimal string height at the 12th fret, intonation will be pretty easy to set.

    With a high-end instrument and no worries about budget you could spend a lot of time making sure each fret was *just right,* as the fret spacing might be off just a little bit and that can be corrected by filing the fret appropriately. Time consuming and fiddle-y work.

    As always, if you want to learn how to set up your mandolin, mandolincafe members can email me at rob.meldrum@gmail.com for a free copy of my ebook on how to set up a mandolin.

    Rob aka Robster

  7. The following members say thank you to Rob Meldrum for this post:


  8. #6
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Gilbertsville. New York
    Posts
    1,842

    Default Re: How hard is it to do setup?

    If mandolin set up were rocket science then luthiers would be paid like rocket scientists.... But they are not. i would ignore for the most part the claims of those who had their mandolin set up by a well paid famous luthier... That may have been years ago but that doesn't mean much to the buyer, particularly if he/she likes a different set up for individual playing style. That is like paying more for a used car because it was tuned up by a good mechanic, a while back.. As suggested above. there are instructions available and certainly not everyone will want to learn, but for those interesed or those with shallow pockets it is a learnable skill. And for many it is really enjoyable.
    Bart McNeil

  9. The following members say thank you to bmac for this post:


  10. #7
    Registered User Pete Summers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    637

    Default Re: How hard is it to do setup?

    I've always done my own set-ups because I am a parsimonious, amateur player. I've not tackled the fret leveling, truss rod adjusting, mystic fine tuning that a pro might do, but I've never needed to.

    Basic set-up is fairly easy with a little patience and decent tools. Setting up a mandolin for Mike Marshall - I'll pass. There is a guy on this site, Robert Meldrum who has a free ebook for those wanting to cover the basics, if you search out his address (I forgot), and a lot of good stuff at www.frets.com to give you good instruction. Cheapos of the World, Unite!

  11. #8
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Nashville
    Posts
    4,966

    Default Re: How hard is it to do setup?

    It depends if you want it to perform like a Ford Escort or a Ferrari. Anyone can go through the motions of a setup, but not many can get peak performance from your instrument. It all depends on whether you are willing to settle for mediocrity or excellence. Often it is not the brand or other things, but the way it is setup that gives peak tone, volume, and playability. There are a good number of little things you cannot and will not do that set a really good setup apart from just a setup. Whatever you spend for a great setup is a bargain. It always frustrates me to see someone spend good money for instrument and all the accessories but won't get it set up right. Save a bit on the extras and get a great setup and you will never be sorry you spent the money.
    Have a Great Day!
    Joe Vest

  12. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Big Joe For This Useful Post:


  13. #9
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    24,807
    Blog Entries
    56

    Default Re: How hard is it to do setup?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Summers View Post
    Basic set-up is fairly easy with a little patience and decent tools.
    Sort of like basic playing, learn 3 or 4 two finger chords, and how to strum across all eight strings and you are playing. Whats the big deal?


    Doing a set up requires some skill, some instruction, some talent, and some experience. IMO acquiring all that can really cut into your pickin time.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  14. #10
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    24,807
    Blog Entries
    56

    Default Re: How hard is it to do setup?

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Joe View Post
    Whatever you spend for a great setup is a bargain. It always frustrates me to see someone spend good money for instrument and all the accessories but won't get it set up right. Save a bit on the extras and get a great setup and you will never be sorry you spent the money.
    Well said.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  15. #11
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    24,807
    Blog Entries
    56

    Default Re: How hard is it to do setup?

    Quote Originally Posted by JonZ View Post
    I always thought it was just a matter of "Measure twice. Cut once."
    I have found that to be true of very very few things in life. A gifted practitioner is a joy to watch. All the little forethought things that get done which seem irrelevant but avoid awkwardnesses and disaster further down the line.

    I do a few things well, and even fewer really well, and the rest I am willing to get help with.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  16. #12
    Registered User Tom Haywood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    PTC GA
    Posts
    1,348

    Default Re: How hard is it to do setup?

    There is a distinction between a purely mechanical setup to achieve certain measurements, which is ususally not so difficult, and what I would call a true setup, which is all about getting the instrument to feel and respond and sound the way the player wants it to. The first is a skill; the second is both a skill and an art. For a novice who doesn't yet know what they are looking for, the first is sufficient. A large part of the art is determining what the player is really looking for and what he or she needs to achieve it, then finding that balance in the instrument. Famous luthier is good if he/she is able to do that for you. Sometimes the best setup person can't get it right for you. Sometimes you can get it just right for yourself. Of course, what you want as a player often changes somewhat, so the art of setup is not static.
    Tom

    "Feel the wood."
    Luthier Page: Facebook

  17. #13

    Default Re: How hard is it to do setup?

    What kinds of things would a setup person do beyond changing string height to accommodate someone's playing style?

    Also, if someone sets up a mandolin to other than standard specs, wouldn't that mean that most other players would not benefit from the player-specific tweaks? Doesn't the average buyer want standard specs?
    Object to this post? Find out how to ignore me here!

  18. #14
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Manchester - Lancashire - NW England
    Posts
    14,187

    Default Re: How hard is it to do setup?

    On the face of it Jon,i'd say that you have a good point - but !. A skilled set-up person,will look beyond the screamingly obvious & check the fret heights ie. are thay all correct in relation to one another ?,no fret(s) higher than others ?, no loose frets waiting to start rattling/buzzing ?. They'll check the nut height,slot depth/width to make sure that there's no chance of any buzzing from that area & make sure that you can fret the string easily at the first fret. If the nut is too high or the slots not deep enough,fretting the strings at the first can be pretty uncomfortable.They'll most likely check the tuners to make sure that all's well there ie. that they turn smoothly without any binding or stiffness. In other words,a good set up is (should be IMHO) like tuning a car for top performance. Simply adjusting string height is a small part of a 'good' set up,although it is an essential one,& something we should all be able to do. I took my acoustic Guitar to my local luthiers a few months back for a set up. It only took him around 15 minutes because it's almost un-played (mandolin addiction),but after he'd set the nut slots to the correct height & adjusted the truss rod slightly,the difference in playability was huge,
    Ivan
    Weber F-5 'Fern'.
    Lebeda F-5 "Special".
    Stelling Bellflower BANJO
    Tokai - 'Tele-alike'.
    Ellis DeLuxe "A" style.

  19. #15

    Default Re: How hard is it to do setup?

    There are those miniscule intonation issues that benefit from removing a bit of wood from leading edge of the bridge saddle or from the nut. Also, knowing how to resolve intonation issues at individual frets by removing fret material to shift the crown over a few thousands of an inch. There is much subtlety in the art of a great setup.

    Len B.
    Clearwater, FL

  20. The following members say thank you to lenf12 for this post:


  21. #16

    Default Re: How hard is it to do setup?

    I bet it's easy for someone like David Harvey.. but he's had years of experience. I don't think we know half the tricks of the trade he knows.

  22. #17
    Registered User mandrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    556

    Default Re: How hard is it to do setup?

    What strikes me when I read discussions on whether mandolin set-up is an area that requires specialist experience and knowledge is that if such is the case, where do you find these people locally? For instance for those of you that live in Central Scotland, who are they and where are they located? Who have you used and would definitely recommend? I certainly don't know. For this reason, I just do the basics, the best I can.

    Whenever I have asked this in the past I am usually pointed to some of few Scottish luthiers, none of who are interested in such work, e.g. Mike Vanden.

  23. #18
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Fairfax Co., Virginia
    Posts
    3,013

    Default Re: How hard is it to do setup?

    One might also consider "hard." When people used to want to work with me I would ask them first to do a very simple thing - take a billet of spruce and make me some soundpost stock using hand tools. That is a very simple thing, just making a long narrow cylinder. It is not hard. However, I haven't hand anyone come through able to do it.

    I would say that setting up and adjusting mandolins isn't hard. But that's from my perspective of making and setting up and adjusting violins. Most things one can keep learning for decades. I suspect mandolin adjustment lies within that domain.
    Stephen Perry

  24. The following members say thank you to Stephen Perry for this post:


  25. #19
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Gilbertsville. New York
    Posts
    1,842

    Default Re: How hard is it to do setup?

    Granted the fine points of set up for professional performers may be worlds apart from those of us wanting to simply set up our instruments for comfortable playing. Most of us probably couldn't hear the difference if we had a super professional set up. Many of us want to learn set up for financial reasons. We can find better ways to spend our money... Like food and rent. I personally collect and restore lower end mandolins and doing my own set up work has saved me lots of money and has them playing to my satisfaction at least. This has allowed me to own and play instruments I simply couldn't afford if the set up work had to be farmed out.
    Bart McNeil

  26. #20

    Default Re: How hard is it to do setup?

    I'm guessing that we should make a distinction between a great pro setup and an adequate amateur setup. Any determined amateur (like me) can learn to do an adequate setup so the mandolin plays easily and sounds relatively well intonated. A professional (like Big Joe) will easily get the setup into the adequate catagory but then take it several steps further so that the intonation is spot on and the mandolin has that balanced response everywhere on the neck from lowest bass to the highest trebles. It will also be maximized for volume and dynamics. We're no longer in journeyman territory at this skill level.

    Len B.
    Clearwater, FL

  27. The following members say thank you to lenf12 for this post:


  28. #21
    Ursus Mandolinus Fretbear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Copperhead Road
    Posts
    3,136

    Default Re: How hard is it to do setup?

    The time element is a part of it. Being able to set up a guitar or mandolin as well as it can be done (by anyone, perfect is perfect) is one thing; being able to do it in an extremely brisk manner, like handing it back to the owner in 24 hours or less, is another, that is what makes one a professional. I am a professional locksmith. I have no doubt that lots of guys that are handy, given the time could install a lock as well as I can (again, perfect is perfect) but due to long experience, if I had to, I can do it real fast as well......
    But Amsterdam was always good for grieving
    And London never fails to leave me blue
    And Paris never was my kinda town
    So I walked around with the Ft. Worth Blues

  29. #22
    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Saint Augustine Beach FL
    Posts
    6,634

    Default Re: How hard is it to do setup?

    A good set up is so important, little adjustments can make a big difference. Its not just about numbers and spec's, a good set up person THINKS about each aspect of the mandolin's playability and LISTENS to what the player wants. That said alot of players don't know what they want, but are frustrated with the instrument. After a proper set up is done they say (hopefully) "wow, I did not know it could play so well and sound so good!"
    Charley

    A bunch of stuff with four strings

  30. #23
    Registered User John Flynn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    8,076

    Default Re: How hard is it to do setup?

    Just because you take your instrument to a shop that has a good reputation, doesn't mean the shop will put their best person on it or put the time and attention into it that it deserves. I have taken two instruments, an archtop mandolin and a Martin guitar, to have setup work done at the store where I bought them and where I had bought a few other instruments over the years. This is a shop that carries a lot of high-end mandolins and guitars and has a full repair shop. Both times the setups cost a lot and were awful. I won't get into all the details, but when I picked up the mandolin, the bridge was about a half inch out of place and intonation was a full semi-tone off. I subsequently talked to some people I know who had similar stories about the same shop. I prefer to do my own setup work unless I live near a luthier I trust, which right now I don't. To Fretbear's point above, it might take me five times as long to do the same job, but at least it will get done inexpensively and well, and I won't have to ship and insure the instrument and wait weeks for it.

    I think doing a decent amateur setup depends on: what needs to be done (I would never attempt "major surgery" like a neck reset), having some basic skills and knowledge, having patience and a big factor: having good tools. They don't have to be expensive tools if you are just going to do an occasional setup, but they need to be "competent" tools.

  31. #24
    Slow your roll. greg_tsam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    1,990
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: How hard is it to do setup?

    I played my mando for 2 years before having a local luthier set it up. The action was really high and the neck was bowed too much. I never noticed it until I got it back. Lower action and sligh bow after a truss rod adjustment. Just as it should be. Much better and easier on the fingertips. I watched what the luthier did, asked a few questions then got on the internet and studied everything I could. Then I "practiced setting up my other mandos.

    Now I feel confident I can do a decent set up and get good remarks from others when they play my mando and comment on the set-up. I'm sure the pros have more techniques and experience than I but my point is it is possible to learn set up and do a good job.
    Breedlove Quartz FF with K&K Twin - Weber Big Horn - Fender FM62SCE
    Wall Hangers - 1970's Stella A and 60's Kay Kraft

    Whether you slow your roll or mash on it, enjoy the ride.

  32. #25
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    24,807
    Blog Entries
    56

    Default Re: How hard is it to do setup?

    Quote Originally Posted by greg_tsam View Post
    Now I feel confident I can do a decent set up and get good remarks from others when they play my mando and comment on the set-up. I'm sure the pros have more techniques and experience than I but my point is it is possible to learn set up and do a good job.
    Its possible to learn how to make a mandolin case out of fiberglass, its possible to learn how to weave a two inch strap with a south west design. There are a lot of things to learn out there, and I don't have the time for most of them.

    When it comes to set ups, its important that it gets done right, and for my money its cheaper to pay than to learn, especially if you include the time it takes to get competent, not to mention good at it.

    Man I got tunes to learn. I got jams to go to.

    I liken it to making beer. I could learn to make beer. Many of my friends do this and it looks like great fun. But I it will a long long time, if ever, that I will be able to make a beer better than what I can buy now at Sam the Beer Man up the street, and making beer cuts into what ever leisure time I may have for consumig beer. Now if I wanted another hobby, it might be great, and if I couldn't tell the difference between pretty good beer and very good beer, I could save a lot of money, but the few bucks more to get a quality it would take me many years to acquire doing - .... ain't going to happen.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •