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Thread: Waverly Tuners tight

  1. #1
    Registered User Rich Benson's Avatar
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    Default Waverly Tuners tight

    Waverly Tuners on a new mandolin. Some turn easily, others very stiff - even on the same pair of strings.
    Remedy?
    Rich
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Waverly Tuners tight

    What are they like with the strings off? If they are no better after lubrication, they may be badly fitted and the posts binding.

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    Default Re: Waverly Tuners tight

    Try a little oil on the gears, Tri-Flow works great. I have seen techs use WD-40 but that is more of moister protectant. Singer sewing machine oil if you can find it works great also.

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    Mandolin user MontanaMatt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Waverly Tuners tight

    Be careful which lubricant you use, some stink, and won't easily be removed.
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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Waverly Tuners tight

    Before I lubricated anything I'd pull the string off the tight tuner and see if it turns freely. It might be that the hole isn't drilled straight and it's binding. It could bind in the nut as well. If the tuner is bad then Stewmac will most likely replace it. I have two sets of Waverly mandolin tuners and they are both smooth but we've had folks here that bought mandolins where the tuners weren't installed correctly.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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  9. #6

    Default Re: Waverly Tuners tight

    +1 on Tri-Flow.
    I've used the one available in bike stores and it works great.

    The last mandolin tuners I used it on was a '27 F2. Only takes a drop or two.

  10. #7
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Waverly Tuners tight

    Waverly tuners are made with close tolerances. That makes them feel great when we take them out of the box and spin the knobs, but it means that slight spacing errors, or slight misalignment of the tuner holes in the peghead can cause hard turning. Other tuners, with tolerances that are more forgiving, may turn easily when installed on the same mandolin.
    It is only my personal experience, but I have never seen a set of Waverly mandolin tuners that were defective. All problems that I've seen with them are misalignment/spacing problems in the mandolin itself.

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  12. #8

    Default Re: Waverly Tuners tight

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    Waverly tuners are made with close tolerances. That makes them feel great when we take them out of the box and spin the knobs, but it means that slight spacing errors, or slight misalignment of the tuner holes in the peghead can cause hard turning. Other tuners, with tolerances that are more forgiving, may turn easily when installed on the same mandolin.
    It is only my personal experience, but I have never seen a set of Waverly mandolin tuners that were defective. All problems that I've seen with them are misalignment/spacing problems in the mandolin itself.
    To that point, it's really difficult to actually install mandolin tuning machines perfectly. It takes a lot of care, specialized tools, and a little bit o' luck.
    I don't think we want to know the make of the mandolin but... are these retrofitted, or fitted new from the builder?

  13. #9
    Registered User Rich Benson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Waverly Tuners tight

    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Jacobson View Post
    To that point, it's really difficult to actually install mandolin tuning machines perfectly. It takes a lot of care, specialized tools, and a little bit o' luck.
    I don't think we want to know the make of the mandolin but... are these retrofitted, or fitted new from the builder?
    New from the builder
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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Waverly Tuners tight

    You may not be able to make the needed measurements but this is from the Stewmac site as to how the tuners need to be installed.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  15. #11

    Default Re: Waverly Tuners tight

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    You may not be able to make the needed measurements but this is from the Stewmac site as to how the tuners need to be installed.
    What that page doesn't give is tolerances for how accurately the holes need to be drilled (spacing error, lateral error, axial error- lots of ways for these positions of holes to go wrong!). Would be useful to know.

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Waverly Tuners tight

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    You may not be able to make the needed measurements but this is from the Stewmac site as to how the tuners need to be installed.
    Stewmac may think we need to install the tuners like they say (after all, it almost requires using their tool), but in fact, Waverly tuners can be installed differently from that tutorial with excellent results. Alignment is critical regardless, however.

  18. #13

    Default Re: Waverly Tuners tight

    Had new Waverly tuners installed on my 1993 Monroe Gibson F5. They are sticky/tight. I'm sure it is because of improper alignment/installation.

    I paid large to have an "expert" repairman install them. The bushings are ill-fitted also. I won't send another instrument to that same place.

    The Waverly's I have on another Gibson F5 work perfectly. They were installed when the mandolin was built.

  19. #14
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Waverly Tuners tight

    I installed both of my sets, one on my Gibson F5G and the other on a Korean mandola. If you pay close attention you don't have problems.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  20. #15
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    Default Re: Waverly Tuners tight

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    Stewmac may think we need to install the tuners like they say (after all, it almost requires using their tool), but in fact, Waverly tuners can be installed differently from that tutorial with excellent results. Alignment is critical regardless, however.
    I have their reamer, I don't use it. The thing I was pointing out was the alignment. As far as the sizes and such, it's on the Stewmac site as well. If you simply pay attention to what they say even a rank amateur such as myself can do it.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  21. #16
    Registered User Bob Buckingham's Avatar
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    Default Re: Waverly Tuners tight

    I have a 2020 A5 Deluxe and the tuners stick even after lubricating with Tri-flow and running them with a drill. I would not expect them to be so tight 3 years later. Could I replace with with another brand of tuner? I have a set of Gotohs and another of Grovers here that I could try.

  22. #17
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Waverly Tuners tight

    Contact Ellis. The only problems I've ever seen with Waverly tuners were installation issues.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  23. #18
    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Waverly Tuners tight

    Peghead hole drilling spacing needs to be 100% accurate. they do not tolerate less...
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  24. #19
    Registered User Drew Egerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Waverly Tuners tight

    I have a set on one of my Northfields. The E string tuners have been tighter than the others since day 1. Not enough to really be a problem. They came standard on this model and it isn't bad enough for me to want to replace them. If I had paid extra to have them added though I would have been disappointed.
    I do think NF uses a different tuner these days instead, not sure if it was related to this issue or not.
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  25. #20
    Registered User doc holiday's Avatar
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    Default Re: Waverly Tuners tight

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    Contact Ellis. The only problems I've ever seen with Waverly tuners were installation issues.
    Having had an Ellis A5, I can tell you it's not an installation problem. Builders have had issues with the Waverly A model tuners. But it's worth talking with both Tom Ellis & Stewmac. Tom's customer service is top notch. I had a pearl tuner button crack due to just this issue....& he sent me a complete new set of tuners and re-turned mine to Stewmac. All i'll say is that there have been discussions involving quite knowledgable people regarding some re-tooling....

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  27. #21
    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Question Re: Waverly Tuners tight

    I bought a 3rd hand Mix A5. Somewhere in the ownership history some one force-fit in a set of Black Button Waverly.
    they thus damaged the tuners, then sold the mandolin with that damage undisclosed..
    Being an old mechanical type - I wrote Stew Mac, sent the tuners in to be checked over.

    and at that time, bought some of the lesser, but adequate, 'Elite' tuners ... offered with the black buttons.
    they tolerated the minor peg head spacing just fine,
    so they've been on there for many years, working quite well.

    As previously said, in this topic, the repair of the Waverly was not a success,
    so they replaced them and, I sold the un opened box set to someone else...

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  28. #22
    Registered User Drew Egerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Waverly Tuners tight

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Egerton View Post
    I have a set on one of my Northfields. The E string tuners have been tighter than the others since day 1. Not enough to really be a problem. They came standard on this model and it isn't bad enough for me to want to replace them. If I had paid extra to have them added though I would have been disappointed.
    I do think NF uses a different tuner these days instead, not sure if it was related to this issue or not.
    Revisiting this conversation, I had also begun noticing that the same E tuner that was the tightest would have a very loose slop of about a 1/8 of a turn when you backed it off from pitch. The button and worm turn, but the gear doesn't.
    I sent that issue to the Stew Mac folks late last week and they have replied today that they will send out a new set and a RMA for the old ones. One note on that, they do not have the bright nickel finish, but I am ok with "satin silver" as I think that will look just fine.
    If it had only been the tightness I had noticed, I would have probably just stuck with it. However, the loose turning issue seems to be getting worse as I only noticed it rarely before and can easily replicate it now.

    Stew Mac customer service has been very pleasant to deal with so far. Hopefully the replacement set will meet the expectations that I have for Waverly!
    Drew
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  29. #23
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    Default Re: Waverly Tuners tight

    As has already been stated, modern high quality tuners are made to very tight tolerances and don't tolerate inaccurate hole spacing or alignment. I have used Wavery and Schaller GrandTune and they are both very intolerant. I mostly use Schallers and I think they are even worse than Waverleys. Carefully marking out by hand I had a success rate of less than 50%, and much time and bad language was spent fiddling around to get them right. I did try Stew Mac's gismo, but that was not much better than doing it by hand. The only way I have managed to solve the problem 100% is to use CNC to drill pilot holes in the headstock overlay before gluing on the overlay. The pilot holes are made with an inlay bit that fits the angle of the point on a brad point bit that I use to drill the holes in the drill press. I have measured the accuracy of the holes and they are within 0.1mm and in a dead straight line. Now the tuners drop straight in with no problems every time. They turn exactly the same as they do when unmounted straight out of the box. Great relief, the CNC is paying for itself.
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  30. #24
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Waverly Tuners tight

    Stewmac is actually very responsive. I had a set I bought used and needed a button screw. I called to buy one and they sent it to me free.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  31. #25
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Waverly Tuners tight

    The super tolerances of the Waverlies are their main flaw, IMHO. One should consider required tolerances when designing tuners and in this case more precision doesn't equal better product.
    The tuners are installed in wood which changes with humidity and temperature swings differently than the metal of the tuners. Also the makers use tapered headstocks with differing amount of taper.
    You can only tilt bushings on the post some minimal amount when the tolerances are too tight and installing bushings perfectly perpendicular to posts (parallel to back of headstock) will require burrying one side of the bushing deeper into front surface of headstock which creates problems with aesthetics and finishing (when you reinstall the bushing after finishing, the leading edge of the bushing will dig into the finish and may cause cracks). If you follow the instlallation instruction with the stepped hole for the posts with bottom hole barely fitting the post you risk that after some swelling/drying of the wood the post will bind against the hole or the transition between the hole in wood and bushing even with CNC cut holes.
    And then there is the possible misalignment of screw mounting holes that can make things worse still...
    Adrian

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