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Thread: Help - guitar to 'cello conversion

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    Registered User Ken_P's Avatar
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    I've been wanting a mandocello for a long time, but could never find the money to buy one, as they tend to be rather expensive (if I could find one at all). A few years ago I hit on the idea of taking an old beater guitar and tuning it to kind of a pale imitation. I put a heavy gauge E on bottom an tuned it down to C, used a medium gauge A turned to G, a standard light D, a medium B tuned to A, and just because it's still a 6 string neck, put a couple light Es on top just to try to balance the tension.

    This is a 30+ year old Yamaha guitar that my father gave me when he started playing seriously again and got a good instrument. I've got a Martin as my main guitar, so this was just lying around before I decided to experiment. It's not a great instrument sound wise, but it's built like a tank and still plays well after all these years of alternate abuse and neglect. Getting to the point, would it be possible to convert this from a bizarre imitation to something closer to the real thing? I assume it would just need a new nut and bridge, and new tuners? How much work and expense am I looking at if I want to try something like this? Is it even worth it? Any tips or pointers would be much appreciated!

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    I think there have been some threads about this - I'm not the guy to go searching for them

    but I think it is very doable - maybe check the builders section - there was some info on NUT and Bridge slot spacing - adding the two extra tuners - you're beyond my skill level there.
    will it sound like a mandocello when you are done?
    well ...

    you would think with all the renewed interst in mandocello - at least I've heard a lot lately around here
    someone would try to start making them in the sub 1K range.

    they make cellos -that sell for under 1K - understandably these are not intended for concert performance -
    so why not apply that same concept to mandocello-

    lowest price I've seen with good reviews was the eastman model.

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    Notary Sojac Paul Kotapish's Avatar
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    Here's a link to a great step-by-step photo essay about how the superb luthier Frank Ford did a conversion of a 1999 Martin 000-15 to an octave mandolin. With the proper string choices you could put such a conversion into mandocello tuning, too.

    8-String Conversion
    Just one guy's opinion
    www.guitarfish.net

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    Frank Ford's guide is excellent. I used it as a basic guide to convert an old 12-string fender guitar into a 5 course ten-string strung CGDAE (among others) that I tend to approach as a mandocello/octave mandolin.

    The good news is that the effort was worth it. I played an absolutely lovely late teens K-2 in a mandolin orchestra for several years. I also am spending some time lately with a friend's new SCGC mandocello. No one will confuse my hybrid monstrosity with those, but considering that all it cost me was a nut blank and strings (I grabbed a slightly converted tailpiece from an extra mandola), it's worth every penny.

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    Registered User Ken_P's Avatar
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    Thanks for the link to the Frank Ford conversion. That looks pretty much exactly like what I want. I'm not expecting the real thing, but if I can do it cheaply, it should be just what I'm looking for. I think the guitar sounds better strung as it is now than it ever did in standard tuning, so if I could turn it into a true 8-stringer, I think it would be pretty impressive considering how it started.

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    '`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`' Jacob's Avatar
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    FWIW, the total tension of a standard 8-string set of mandocello strings is about 245 pounds. This is well beyond the tension of six-string acoustic guitar sets, and is very nearly that of twelve-string guitar sets, around 255 pounds. Most twelve-string guitars have dual truss rods to handle the extra load. A six-string guitar might not survive 245 pounds of string tension.

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    Registered User Ken_P's Avatar
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    I was a little worried about the tension, but I won't be using a standard set of cello strings. I was thinking I'd have to stick with the regular ball end guitar strings in cello tuning. If I use a fairly light gauge, how would that affect the tension vs cello strings?

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    Moderator JEStanek's Avatar
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    There is also this to consider... The Wishnevsky carved mandocello for $600...

    Link NFI for me other than I'm considering one... That darn Mike Marshall and his Gator Strut and Bach Pieces!!!

    Jamie
    There are two things to aim at in life: first, to get what you want; and, after that, to enjoy it. Only the wisest of mankind achieve the second. Logan Pearsall Smith, 1865 - 1946

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    '`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`' Jacob's Avatar
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    Doug Dieter's Universal String Tension Calculator is a useful tool. Link for download at bottom of page.

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    This is my guitar to 'cello conversion, an inexpensive arch top from the 'bay and half a set of D'Addario mandocello strings. I have only used 4 strings to keep the tension down, I would love to put all 8 on but I doubt the guitar could handle the load. Right now the neck is 1.75" wide at the nut, I would like to make the neck a bit smaller. It would be about 1.5" or so if I come in to where the outer strings were. I think I will try to make a new nut, does anyone have a good suggestion for string spacing? the neck does have a truss rod or at least there is something under the cover that turns with a wrench.::
    Even with 4 strings it sounds pretty good, and I am undecided if I want to put the E back on so it would be CGDAE (a 5 stringer tuned in fifths:D )
    Kevin Vail

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    So much for getting pictures....
    Kevin Vail

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    Ah, a picture.....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Mandocello_0021.jpg 
Views:	404 
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ID:	27486  
    Kevin Vail

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    And another one...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Mandocello_0031.jpg 
Views:	298 
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ID:	27487  
    Kevin Vail

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    "There is also this to consider... The Wishnevsky carved mandocello for $600..."

    Anybody played one? That's a heck of a price!

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    Registered User Ken_P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (aries753 @ Nov. 14 2007, 01:12)
    This is my guitar to 'cello conversion, an inexpensive arch top from the 'bay and half a set of D'Addario mandocello strings. I have only used 4 strings to keep the tension down, I would love to put all 8 on but I doubt the guitar could handle the load. Right now the neck is 1.75" wide at the nut, I would like to make the neck a bit smaller. It would be about 1.5" or so if I come in to where the outer strings were. I think I will try to make a new nut, does anyone have a good suggestion for string spacing? the neck does have a truss rod or at least there is something under the cover that turns with a wrench.::
    Even with 4 strings it sounds pretty good, and I am undecided if I want to put the E back on so it would be CGDAE (a 5 stringer tuned in fifths:D )
    I'm thinking about going this route, as it seems the guitar you got is readily available on ebay. I have a few stupid questions that I'd like to have answers to before I go ahead and do it. First, how does it sound? I know this is not a high quality instrument, but is it at least reasonable? What is the bass response like, in particular? Can you get much definition on the low C, or is it more of a thump? What is the volume like?

    Regarding the setup of the instrument, can I string it up with 'cello strings right out of the box, or do I have to change the tailpiece and/or bridge before it will work (I'm asking about 4 stings, I know 8 would require some work)? If I wanted to, could I at a later date get a new tailpiece, bridge, and nut so that the string spacing works a little better?

    Hope someone can help out here. Thanks!

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    Ken_P, it sounds OK, I have been to busy to really work on it as much as I would like to.
    The open C is OK, some of the fretted notes on C are kinda dead though. I just put 4 strings on it and have not messed with the bridge compensation like it needs, couple of high frets etc. I just used the 4 inner string slots. Since it was a guitar, the tailpiece is set up for ball end strings. I just popped the balls out of the guitar strings that were on the instrument.
    I have put the high E back on, I have not decided if it am going to leave it on yet. But it sure makes anything higher than an E lots easier to play. If I practiced more I would be better at playing above the 7th fret and would not need the E string. (I still try to play it like a mando so some of the finger streches are a bear). Leave it to me to try and make the reach from G on the D string to say the Bb on the A string. Again more practice and better skill would fix that.
    Kevin Vail

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    I am about to join this distinguished society by converting an old beater. I wonder how it would work to do single bass strings and pair the trebles?
    "First you master your instrument, then you master the music, then you forget about all that ... and just play"
    Charlie "Bird" Parker

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    Quote Originally Posted by (Jacob @ Oct. 02 2007, 02:53)
    FWIW, the total tension of a standard 8-string set of mandocello strings is about 245 pounds. This is well beyond the tension of six-string acoustic guitar sets, and is very nearly that of twelve-string guitar sets, around 255 pounds. Most twelve-string guitars have dual truss rods to handle the extra load. A six-string guitar might not survive 245 pounds of string tension.
    Jacob,

    One of the knocks against doing this conversion is the shorter scale length of the guitar, which causes less string tension. My understanding is that I am likely to have a wimpy C not because the guitar top doesn't have enough bass response (it's only 4 half steps down from the E) but because the C will probably be a little floppy and not have enough tension to drive the top well. With the right strings, I could get the tension up I suppose, but the reality is that I will get the cheap D'Addarrio set (<$12 at Elderly including shipping) or something similar and only string 6 of them at most (probably pairing only the trebles).

    Jamie,

    This is your fault. I followed a link you posted to some Mike Marshall videos to see the 'cello playing you were so enthralled by. This is probably the cheapest way I can prove to myself that it's beyond me.


    "First you master your instrument, then you master the music, then you forget about all that ... and just play"
    Charlie "Bird" Parker

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (JEStanek @ Oct. 02 2007, 11:18)
    There is also this to consider... The Wishnevsky carved mandocello for $600...
    I think you may want to clarify the price with the maker:
    Quote Originally Posted by
    I make hand carved Archtop bodies with a range of necks, Bass, Mandocello, and Guitars. Minimum order is $600.00 for all Mahogany top and back. Spruce tops are $300.00 upcharge.
    On this page he says:
    Quote Originally Posted by
    Carved top instruments will start at $600.00.


    Jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by (JEStanek @ Oct. 02 2007, 11:18)
    There is also this to consider... The Wishnevsky carved mandocello for $600...

    Link #NFI for me other than I'm considering one... That darn Mike Marshall and his Gator Strut and Bach Pieces!!!

    Jamie
    There is also this site (scroll down to #4 on the page):

    http://www.soaresyguitars.com/

    I have read a lot of reviews on their stuff that says to expect to spend another $150 getting it properly set up, more if you get a good tailpiece.
    "First you master your instrument, then you master the music, then you forget about all that ... and just play"
    Charlie "Bird" Parker

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    An interesting little bump in my road...

    I had someone tell me they had an old serviceable acoustic I was welcome to have and that is what I planned to use to do the conversion.
    Well, I was in for a little bit of a surprise. It's a classical guitar:


    Epi EC-100

    I was kinda bummed about this. I have a mando tail piece I was planning to use, but I fear 8 metal strings will bend that neck up like a pretzel. But then I remembered reading about some instruments that were like tenor ukes but with double courses and strung as OMs. There are lots of instruments around the world that are gut/nylon strung with multi string courses that sound pretty good; why not a "classical mandocello"?

    I have run some calculators and found that the appropriate nylon strings are easy to come by at reasonable cost.

    I have decided to go ahead and make it 4 courses of two and not do any funky half way measures with 6 strings. A style mandolin tuners will fit the existing cavity, though I will have to fill the existing tuner holes and drill new ones. But I have dowels, epoxy and black paint (for inside the cavity). I will have to drill new holes in the bridge to tie off strings and fill the old ones (except for the outer two) on the bridge. I also need to make a new nut, but I have some corian and it has a nut to use as a pattern.

    Long story short - I can make this look like it always has been a cello tuned 8 string, 4 course instrument pretty easily. Any reason I shouldn't?

    Oh yeah; it is in pristine condition. The one I have actually looks better than the above picture. It was strung with some pretty old nylon when I got it, but sounded pretty good.

    Thanks...
    Andy



    "First you master your instrument, then you master the music, then you forget about all that ... and just play"
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    I have filled the old holes and I am anxiously waiting on parts to arrive.

    I have another addition to the cheap alternative list Jamie started, but it comes with the caveat that it is just a comment I read elsewhere about the cheap Irish Bouzoukis. Some one mentioned that the real low end ones (like the $258 LITM model) are often better as cellos than OMs. He qualified that as meaning "less bad", but it is an interesting thought.
    "First you master your instrument, then you master the music, then you forget about all that ... and just play"
    Charlie "Bird" Parker

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    Violins and Mandolins Stephanie Reiser's Avatar
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    I know this doesn't really pertain to the topic, but I was bored last night while playing guitar, so I retuned the bottom 4 strings from EADG to CGDA, and promptly broke the G, I mean A, string. After changing said string, I proceeded to play my new "mando" cello. The E-now-C string was somewhat floppy but I went ahead. I played the infamous Bach 1st Cello prelude that Mike plays on the D'Addario site. Playing it from mandolin memory did not work for some reason, so I used a copy I have of it in Tab. Made it easier. It was pretty cool and lots of fun, but lots of finger stretching.
    http://www.stephaniereiser.com then click mandolins

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    In my case (converting classical), I am staying with nylon. I did order my set as guitar strings to keep the cost low. The place I ordered from (http://www.zayaruzo.com/) lets you specify strings individually as long as the total number is right. So I ordered 3 sets of 6 and asked for 4 X High tension EE, 4 High tension AA, 4 normal tension D and 6 normal tension G strings (which are mono and at pretty low pressure to get a G). Using their string calculator, it looks like I should get CGDA at pretty normal tension.
    "First you master your instrument, then you master the music, then you forget about all that ... and just play"
    Charlie "Bird" Parker

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    I actually have two mandocello conversions. #The first started out as an abused 1952 Gibson L7C Guitar. A hole had been cut in the top and through the tone bar for an added P90 pickup and all the hardware plus much of the fingerboard inlay was missing so I didn't feel so bad about the project. #My repair guy did a great job and it turned out beautiful. #I use phospher bronze 62, 42 and 30's plus steel 18's for standard mandocello tuning. #My other conversion started out as a poorly refinished 1967 Martin D28 guitar which had had the top thinned considerably and the braces scalloped. #I had it converted to a four string mandocello, and I use bright bronze 60, 46, 32 and 20 strings. # It's really more like playing a huge tenor guitar than a mandocello but it's a unique voice for sure. #I'll try to get some photos up. #Neither project was that cheap but I wanted an F-hole mandocello and a flat-top guitar like mandocello.

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