Results 1 to 16 of 16

Thread: Dye question HELP!

  1. #1

    Default Dye question HELP!

    Gentleman, I have about ended the dye process. My question is this. I started with yellow, then amber, medium brown and then dark. It looks pretty good. But I have been trying to copy the Loar look on this mandolin. From what I have seen in pictures there is a fair amount of red in those. I have more amber burst right now. Can I tone down some red and blend it right over what I have now? Or were some of the old Gibson’s kinda amber burst like what I have described? Seems like I have seen some with more yellow than red? Keep in mind this mandolin is a distressed copy. Oh one more thing.....no lacquer has been applied or any other top coat. Thanks Veterans, JR

  2. #2
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    DeKalb, IL
    Posts
    3,633

    Default Re: Dye question HELP!

    I'm no Loar expert, to put it mildly. But based on a lot of finishing experience, I'd say go real easy on the red. It's easy to add. Almost impossible to take back.

  3. #3
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,078

    Default Re: Dye question HELP!

    In my opinion, there is not any red in the true "Cremona Brown" finishes. They are composed of brown and yellow, and sometimes [but not always] a bit of amber. That is one of the things that sets them apart from many of the other Gibson sunburst schemes.

    I am confident that they used aniline dyes in their old finishes. If you are using something else, a match will be very difficult.
    While Trans-tint and similar modern coloring products may have some of the same components as the old dyes, they are far from being a close match.

    I'll also mention that if you have been applying your dye directly to the wood, it will look very different after you have applied your varnish or lacquer. You can get a very rough idea of how it will look under varnish by wiping it with just a tiny bit of naphtha on a rag or paper towel [after it has had plenty of drying time].

  4. #4

    Default Re: Dye question HELP!

    Thanks gentleman, yes I like the Cremona brown the best of all. Just a beautiful color scheme to me. I was hoping I was on the right track with that amber/yellow/brown. I have seen some of the old photos up close. What was confusing to me was Bills hall of fame mandolin. It definitely has a fair amount of red. The worn areas at the edges are almost a orange color. And yes rcc56, I would say I’m pretty far off. I used transtint with alcohol. I’m glad Dale chimed in too, i was thinking exactly what he commented about the red, lol! You guys are invaluable! Thx. JR

  5. #5
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,078

    Default Re: Dye question HELP!

    IIRC, Bill's mandolin was refinished decades ago. The story is that that's the reason he dug out the logo with his pocket knife.
    And then later there was that little incident with the poker . . .

  6. #6

    Default Re: Dye question HELP!

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    IIRC, Bill's mandolin was refinished decades ago. The story is that that's the reason he dug out the logo with his pocket knife.
    And then later there was that little incident with the poker . . .
    So it was a more Cremona burst originally? I knew it had been touched up and the story on the pocket knife. But not to what extent, interesting. Thx.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Dye question HELP!

    All that was before the damage by the poker though right?

  8. #8
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    15,863

    Default Re: Dye question HELP!

    Pictures are simply not reliable sources for original colors, especially pictures on line where colors are invariably not accurate.
    In order for me to get a close Loar match (which can be done with anilines or other dyes) I end up using a fair amount of red, mostly mixed into my dark color, but occasionally a dilute red wash or two, or sometimes a little red sprayed over everything if things are tending green.
    I can start with yellow or just with amber because amber dyes generally have enough yellow in them anyway. The red is mostly to counter the tendency of yellows, ambers and browns to tend toward green. Red corrects green and vise versa. Get yourself a color wheel and understand how to use it. If your color is not what you want, figure out what there is too much of and correct it by using a little of the opposite color on the color wheel.
    Now, it is important to know that each time we correct our color by adding opposite color things get darker, so it is good to keep things light in the early going to allow for darkening if things need to be corrected.
    I've been fortunate enough to have Loar mandolins on hand to match when replicating the color, and that is the only way I feel confident in achieving a good match. Unfortunately, it is not always an easy thing to do; getting someone to loan you a Loar to copy the color. Any time I've had a chance to compare one of my normal 'bursts to a Loar the look has been very similar, and I do normally have to use some red to get that color.
    Last edited by sunburst; Apr-28-2020 at 11:51pm. Reason: spelling

  9. #9
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,078

    Default Re: Dye question HELP!

    Also, it's hard to put an exact definition on Cremona brown. Over a period of 10 or 12 years, it was used on quite a few instruments. Some are lighter, some are darker, some more yellow in the center, some more amber. And the color scheme was established when Gibson was still using varnish, and continued well after the changeover to nitrocellulose lacquer. And we can all fight about what year the change started, and when the changeover was complete. I'm not fighting today.

    John's advice on using red to counteract "greening" is invaluable. I've experienced greening several times with browns and ambers. And I defer to John on finish work. He is much better at it than I am, and has much more experience with it than I do.

    I recall a Nick Lucas guitar that had a yellow center that positively glowed.

    Oh, and yes, the pocket knife came way before the poker.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Dye question HELP!

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    Also, it's hard to put an exact definition on Cremona brown. Over a period of 10 or 12 years, it was used on quite a few instruments. Some are lighter, some are darker, some more yellow in the center, some more amber. And the color scheme was established when Gibson was still using varnish, and continued well after the changeover to nitrocellulose lacquer. And we can all fight about what year the change started, and when the changeover was complete. I'm not fighting today.

    John's advice on using red to counteract "greening" is invaluable. I've experienced greening several times with browns and ambers. And I defer to John on finish work. He is much better at it than I am, and has much more experience with it than I do.

    I recall a Nick Lucas guitar that had a yellow center that positively glowed.

    Oh, and yes, the pocket knife came way before the poker.

    Thanks all you guys! Yes, I see what you guys are trying to describe. I have pulled up all the pictures I can find. I understand what John meant when he stated pictures are not a good representation. With that said, some Cremona seem to have a tint of Red and others have none. The ones that have near no red, seem to be more amber? And the ones with more red seem a brighter yellow? Interesting to say the least. JR

  11. #11
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    MountainView, AR
    Posts
    317

    Default Re: Dye question HELP!

    rcc56: (Oh, and yes, the pocket knife came way before the poker.)

    Being a father of four I kinda wish that happened to me years ago. “The knife before the poker”...

  12. #12
    Registered User jim simpson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Wheeling, WV
    Posts
    5,508

    Default Re: Dye question HELP!

    I like the red element in a sunburst. On the right is a friend's '23 Loar. For comparison, the one on the left is my '81 F5-L, very little red element.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	3 Gibsons.jpg 
Views:	165 
Size:	578.1 KB 
ID:	185346  
    Last edited by jim simpson; Apr-29-2020 at 2:37pm.
    Old Hometown, Cabin Fever String Band

  13. #13
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    15,863

    Default Re: Dye question HELP!

    Looks a little off to be a '23 Loar... Center looks bigger, rub marks show up more than usual, more red than I would expect, other suspicious looking details. Is there any chance is has been refinished?
    Of course it is an internet picture, so it could just be the picture itself, or it could be an unusual looking Gibson.

    Here's the most recent '23 to pass through my shop. This is more what I expect them to look like.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	23.jpg 
Views:	205 
Size:	117.1 KB 
ID:	185347

  14. #14
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,078

    Default Re: Dye question HELP!

    Jim's picture looks off to me also.
    John's looks right.

  15. #15
    Registered User j. condino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Asheville, NC
    Posts
    2,758

    Default Re: Dye question HELP!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Ludewig View Post
    I'm no Loar expert, to put it mildly. But based on a lot of finishing experience, I'd say go real easy on the red. It's easy to add. Almost impossible to take back.
    Stick it in direct sunlight for a few weeks and the reds fade VERY rapidly!

    Some aniline dyes are also temperature sensitive for the reds. I found this out the hard way when I packed up a quartet of new instruments in my truck for a show in Seattle about ten years ago during a summer heat wave. When I opened up all the cases in Tacoma, my beautiful red 'bursts had all faded to cremona brown......
    www.condino.com

    Crafted by hand in a workshop powered by the sun.

  16. #16
    Registered User jim simpson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Wheeling, WV
    Posts
    5,508

    Default Re: Dye question HELP!

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    Looks a little off to be a '23 Loar... Center looks bigger, rub marks show up more than usual, more red than I would expect, other suspicious looking details. Is there any chance is has been refinished?
    Of course it is an internet picture, so it could just be the picture itself, or it could be an unusual looking Gibson.

    Here's the most recent '23 to pass through my shop. This is more what I expect them to look like.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	23.jpg 
Views:	205 
Size:	117.1 KB 
ID:	185347
    John, your example's appearance is more familiar to what I'm used to seeing. I thought perhaps this one spent more time in it's case and hadn't had the exposure to fade. My friend is a cafe member and I've made him aware of the thread in case there was anything he'd want to add. I don't know who owned it before him. I believe the date and year of '23 is certain for this one. I suspect the quality of my image is of poor quality.
    Old Hometown, Cabin Fever String Band

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •