Question for Experienced Players

[Peter Barnett]

I am still pretty much a beginner. In fact, many of the parts to the mandolin world are just now coming together. Like a lot of folks, I started playing bluegrass and had progressed to jamming with others regularly until this latest mess interrupted the jams.

Bluegrass seems to be mostly played at Mach 2. I am finding more and more bluegrass songs that lose their character at the speeds people play them. I heard Cherokee Shuffle played the other day at speeds that made it almost unrecognizable.

Two points: I can’t play that fast; and, I don’t want to play so fast that the tune just becomes melodic noise. I have had this same sense at festivals where top players go to jam.

Is this a common experience in the journey through the mandolin world?

Maybe bluegrass isn’t my genre?!?

[BG_Dana]

I agree with you about speed, and yes, bluegrass players who can show speed usually do. It is
not limited to mandolin, banjo players are the worst (I am one of those too).

The good thing about music is that you can do what you want. Find players who play at your speed and have fun.

[theinone]

It does seem like a "Gunfight at the OK Coral" at times when one is at a festival jam session. I usually don't pull the instrument out right away before I walk around the circles and just listen. It's not that I can't keep up when anyone shooting notes out like a machine gun, it's just that after 45+ years I don't care to pick that fast. Speed will kill a fiddle tune faster than a summer downpour in the back field and you're right - tunes can sound a bit blurred, even though who ever is picking fast is clean and accurate and slick as as a winter street in downtown Duluth - I like my tunes at a more moderate pace so I can embellish a bit which I'll admit here now, can get out of hand too - but I like to hear and savor the melody like a good steak.

Maybe look for a jam that is more old-timey as most bluegrass fiddle standards have started there. I've learned quite a few gems to take home and add to my list that way. When I teach mandolin up north here a number of my students have expressed concern that they aren't picking fast enough. I have to tell them not to worry and strive for speed. If you focus your energy on speed you loose the melody idea and you can crash and burn real quick, which can result in becoming discouraged. Speed will come as comfort with the melody and neck position is learned. IMHO speed should never be the goal of any fiddle tune. One of the hardest things to pick, and pick well is pick a bluegrass standard slow.

When you do - you hear things differently and for me opens the tune for improv and embellishment
exploration. Well that's my rant and ramble.. don't let it discourage you, there are jammers out there that feel the same and will welcome you in... and hopefully this Corvid thing will end and we can all get back to pounding out the tunes in the back lots and fields and enjoying the fellowship jamming brings.

I am still pretty much a beginner. In fact, many of the parts to the mandolin world are just now coming together. Like a lot of folks, I started playing bluegrass and had progressed to jamming with others regularly until this latest mess interrupted the jams.

Bluegrass seems to be mostly played at Mach 2. I am finding more and more bluegrass songs that lose their character at the speeds people play them. I heard Cherokee Shuffle played the other day at speeds that made it almost unrecognizable.

Two points: I can’t play that fast; and, I don’t want to play so fast that the tune just becomes melodic noise. I have had this same sense at festivals where top players go to jam.

Is this a common experience in the journey through the mandolin world?

Maybe bluegrass isn’t my genre?!?

[stevedenver]

All of the above.
Its not the genre, its the people. and their attitude/interpretation of music.
And, its YOUR sense of musicianship.
You need to find YOUR peeps.

This like preferring spicy food to less spicy, relaxing music to something that makes you want to dance, etc. no right or wrong.
And, fwiw, I think tempo, and key are a really big deal, and its not always 240 BPM that's the best. It can be used to make a very tired tune exciting, in the same way as avoiding speed traps in a 30mph zone. Not always the best choice.

IMHO, playing is being able to listen, and, being able to express yourself. You need to do this at your level, and allow yourself to grow.

Playing with others is like a friendship, if not sometimes a marriage , depending on the length and intensity of the relationship. Some jams are great, others, not so much, and even they vary almost each session. Festivals are even more intense, imho.

There are always those better than you, worse than you, richer, poorer, etc.. And people with certain expectations of how and what to play, or, not so much, and just are into being in the moment. and then there are.....the BG POLICE......stay in the lines, that's not how so and so played it....(time for an aspirin or something)

Personally, mostly I can keep up, but im not a virtuoso, nor is BG my most favorite music. I know pretty much in terms of the repertoire, but I don't study it deeply., More than anything, I hate feeling like its a competition. Does little for my overall sense of musical happiness and satisfaction. Sometimes it may dash my sense of spontaneity and creativity. OTOH, it can up your game, eventually your confidence, but you need to want this for it to be satisfying, IMHO.

IMHO, its important to bear in mind, respectfully, that your feeling are yours, most other folks make their judgment about you and its over and done, not good, not hostile, not bad, just they peg you. So chin up, attend not to conquer , but to particiapte, if you can, or to observe and learn. Just think about all the other great things in your life. And carry on, play and let er rip, clams and all.

Don't worry be happy. Find where your comfortable. As they tell us, speed will come.LOL

[BG_Dana]

I agree that it is most likely a jam thing. If you listen to the Bluegrass Album Band, you will find tunes they play
in the appropriate (at least, to me) speed.

[cartershilts]

There's a British journalist named Emma John who wrote a book about her trip to North Carolina and her first exposure to bluegrass jams. The first thing she noticed was the 'competitive' aspect of the jams and how soloists were always trying to one-up each other with faster, more technical solos. It's not necessarily a bad thing, and is one of the reasons bluegrass breeds so many prodigies, but it certainly has side effects as well. A little competitiveness is good, it pushes players and helps them improve, but too much competitiveness upsets the vibe and can make the jam really unenjoyable.

The excitement of the jam plays a role as well. Coming from the Midwest, I didn't have too many opportunities to jam when I was growing up. I remember when I first started going to jams my entire sense of timing would be thrown out the window because I was so excited that I would just put the pedal to the metal on every tune.

All that said, I think the top players are actually the ones who play at a tempo appropriate for the tune (think Tony Rice's version of "Cattle in the Cane," or Bill Monroe playing "Southern Flavor"). The top players are also the ones who adapt to the overall level of the jam (you'll never see Sierra Hull walk into a beginners' jam and start playing Daybreak in Dixie at 200 bpm).

[Bill McCall]

Fast tempos are part of many musical genres, so switching can be problematic. Jams vary considerably in preferred tempos, so its often the case of founding one yourself to attract players in your preferred tempo. I've done that in 2 different genres.

But when you're in a jam where a particular song is too fast, you can always pass, or play a slimmed down version of the melody. Learning to slim down the notes is a skill in itself.

My take-"which fiddle tunes sound better slower? All of them"

[Erin M]

...
It's not necessarily a bad thing, and is one of the reasons bluegrass breeds so many prodigies, but it certainly has side effects as well. A little competitiveness is good, it pushes players and helps them improve, but too much competitiveness upsets the vibe and can make the jam really unenjoyable.
...

I'm lucky that the only bluegrass combos I've played with (bass, not mandolin) have been friendly amateur groups, so nobody is belting out tunes so fast the poor fiddler's bow arm looks like a hummingbird wing. Maybe things are just more laid-back about bluegrass on the west coast, too. I have seen a lot of performances that are taken at breakneck tempo and those are usually groups from the "heartland of bluegrass". Personally, I prefer the cooperative rather than competitive atmosphere; I kind of feel the results are more satisfying.

It calls to mind my orchestra days when we'd do something like Beethoven's 8th symphony at Beethoven's indicated metronome markings[*] (WAY fast); I felt bad for the poor cellists who were barely able to scratch out that triplet-infested trio section in the 3rd movement. It invariably ended up sounding like a trainwreck. But, when played at a tempo more in line with the character of the music, it sounded beautiful.

That being said, there's room for everyone in the Bluegrass world and not necessarily a right or wrong tempo.


[*]: there's a lot of speculation that Beethoven's metronome, which was among the first ever made, was a bit inaccurate, so all the metronome markings he added just seem way too fast for the character of the music. Some conductors insist on playing them exactly as written though.

[Peter Barnett]

Thanks for your insights. They are appreciated.

A clarification, the regular group I jam with is very accepting of a newbie.

What caused me to be thinking about this more than usual are the number of tunes on YouTube that just rip along. This caused me to think about the jams at the festivals from last Summer in which tunes were played that I had played that I simply didn’t recognize. All rather circular logic.

[marbelizer]

When I was in my beginner/ intermediate days I would venture out to the National Old Time Fiddle contest out in Weiser ID. I found the more moderate tempo jams were with the older folks. I'd listen to the younger gunslingers for awhile then head over to the RV section where the "Weiser Geezers" were jamming the old numbers at a moderate tempo. Much more enjoyable for me. They were also very welcoming and friendly.

Now I'm in my 60s and ready to take on the mantle of Weiser Geezer. Maybe next summer....

[Steve L]

For what it's worth, this conversation occurs in Traditional Irish Music circles as well. There are often specific "slow sessions" held for folks who can't quite get up to "session speed".

[A-board]

At a summer camp last year there was a group of older teens and young 20’s who dominated the bluegrass jams as if it was NASCAR. Some of us older folks just formed smaller groups elsewhere to get out of the speed trap.

[jimmy powells]

You lose the beauty of the melody with all that speed. Does nothing for me. Listen to something like Russian Rag. You get all the intensity without that 'I'm gonna play this as fast as I possibly can and don't care how many notes I miss' attitude.

I love to enjoy the note and hate to hear it spoiled.

[Timbofood]

There is a great tendency for break neck speeds for breakdowns (sorry, I will go to my corner) and a very great amount of Bluegrass music, the problem is so many replace “Drive” with SPEED! And it’s not always about speed, there is a certain aggressive component to the music that makes it “git right up there and go!”
There are tunes that are just fun to play with a “swing and bounce” not fast as all get out!
You will find some more guys with like feelings and you will be happy as a clam at high tide!

[Marcus CA]

Fast tempos are part of many musical genres, so switching can be problematic. Jams vary considerably in preferred tempos, so its often the case of founding one yourself to attract players in your preferred tempo. I've done that in 2 different genres.

You lose the beauty of the melody with all that speed. Does nothing for me. Listen to something like Russian Rag. You get all the intensity without that 'I'm gonna play this as fast as I possibly can and don't care how many notes I miss' attitude.

As you’ve seen, there are plenty of jammers who go NASCAR. As you’ve read here, there are plenty who don’t. One advantage of playing at Mach Whatever is getting to play more songs or tunes at a jam.

That said, the bottom line is doing what’s fun. That’s why people play music, rather than work music. The speed demons I’ve played with have tons of fun going at that pace, but I don’t, so I’ve dropped out of those jams. I found myself working music in those. I prefer allegro non troppo, and so do the guys I currently play music with, pandemics notwithstanding.

[Timbofood]

I’ve said that before Marcus CA,
It’s called “PLAYING” music!
Doc Watson once said: “When playin’ music turns into a job it will be time to quit!” Great way to look at it, Doc,
I have felt that a couple times, and, have stopped. But, the guys I play with are my best friends and we play still. We started playing together in 1975, three of us are still playing together, eat together, enjoy each other still. The music was an amalgam to forge the most lasting friendships I’ve been blessed to have. It hasn’t just been the band, it was meeting people, learning from other people, sharing what I could, learning like a five year old in kindergarten! Being around luthiers, talent on so many fronts.
Find people that are fun to be with, I used to tell people to find the guy that’s two weeks ahead of you, the same questions have just gone through their head as they come to you!
It’s all fun, it’s up to you to find where the fun is for you.