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Thread: New Build: 13 inch scale Flat-Top

  1. #1
    Barn Cat Mandolins Bob Clark's Avatar
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    Default New Build: 13 inch scale Flat-Top

    A couple of months back, I posted about a new flat-top piccolo mandolin I had just completed in this thread: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...ilding-Project
    In that thread, I mentioned that I was also working on a short-scale mandolin of similar design. It is now complete. I strung it up just yesterday and am pleased with the results.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    While the shape is similar to the piccolo, this mandolin's body is larger, especially longer. The scale length is 13" and it feels good under the fingers. Back and sides are cherry, top is Adirondack spruce, neck is maple, fret board is bamboo. I gave it a one-piece maple bridge, but I still need to cut down the height a bit. Once I get the height right where I want it, I'll carve it a compensated cherry bridge as well.

    I took Pheffernan's advice and gave the headstock a bit more taper, although it doesn't actually look as if I did because the headstock is a bit shorter than on the piccolo. I would have liked to use a better tailpiece, but my COVID-era budget just doesn't facilitate that. I went with Grover tuners on this one.

    Its voice is sweet and clear, with the sound one expects from a flat-top. While there are always things I would do differently, I am pretty happy with it. I need to spend some time playing it to see what it becomes, but its voice is along the lines of what I was after. I like the cherry body. I will use cherry again in the future.

    I have two more piccolo mandolins in the works, one if which is nearly done. I'll post pictures of that one soon. I anxiously await the post-lockdown time when I can again play with my friends so I can pass these around for feedback from other mandolinists.

    Once I finish these next two, I think I'll try making a double case which will hold this mandolin and a piccolo. Thanks for looking! I hope you enjoy following my build adventures!

    Best wishes,

    Bob
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  3. #2
    I really look like that soliver's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Build: 13 inch scale Flat-Top

    Thanks for sharing Bob! That's a cool looking instrument!... I'm working on my first build myself which is a Flatiron pancake style flat top using plans from Terry M. at Crystal Forest. Using mahogany for the back and sides and torrified sitka for the top.
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    Barn Cat Mandolins Bob Clark's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Build: 13 inch scale Flat-Top

    Quote Originally Posted by soliver View Post
    Thanks for sharing Bob! That's a cool looking instrument!... I'm working on my first build myself which is a Flatiron pancake style flat top using plans from Terry M. at Crystal Forest. Using mahogany for the back and sides and torrified sitka for the top.
    Hi Spencer,

    Thanks for the compliment! I am trying for something a little different with that elongated body. I like it and hope others will as well, but I recognize it may not appeal to everyone.

    I have been following your build with interest. You are aware of my high opinion of Terry's instruments. I have learned a lot from his plans, as well. They are clear and comphensive. Graham McDonald's book is also really helpful.

    I am curious to learn your opinion of the torrified wood, as your build progresses and is completed. I don't think Imhave seen a flat-top with the combination you have chosen. I think it will result in a gorgeous tone and wish you well with it.

    I really like working with cherry and like the results as well. The cherry I used in this one has been sitting in my barn for about 35 years awaiting the right project. This was the right project and I am really happy with the results. I have now found a local, small sawmill that I can get local cherry from and am anxious to get there to pick through his cutoffs. He uses large pieces and has no need for the size I need. What could be better?

    Best wishes, Spencer, for your build. I hope you get the same satisfaction from it as I am getting from mine.
    Purr more, hiss less. Barn Cat Mandolins Photo Album

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    Default Re: New Build: 13 inch scale Flat-Top

    Thanks Bob, just so you know I only got the Torrified Wood because I got an offer fro Stew Mac for $20 towards whatever I wanted (I think I hadn't bought anything in a while and they were trying to entice me). I knew I'd eventually want to build a mando so I opted for the Torrified Sitka which was $30 in order to utilize the entire offer. After the $20 off and adding shipping, I only spent $20. I have never worked regular Sitka so I don't honestly have anything to compare it to. But so far, so good!
    aka: Spencer
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    Barn Cat Mandolins Bob Clark's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Build: 13 inch scale Flat-Top

    Just a quick update. I've been playing this new mandolin for a week or so now and it is really starting to sound good. I have adjusted the setup a bit and now have the bridge and nut where I want them, and the frets nicely leveled. The instrument is buzz-free.

    It really works with D'Addario EJ 73 strings, which is what I built it for. The basic goal was to build an instrument that sound good and play well with light strings at relatively low tension. I have achieved that goal. The tensions (as per D'Addario Tension Pro Calculator) are as follows: E 19.21 , A 16.77 , D 19.98 , G 21.93. By comparison, a 13.875 scale instrument with EJ 74 strings would have the following tensions: E 23.25 , A 19.26 , D 23.36 , G 24.48 . So, the reduced tensions per string are as follows: E 17.4% , A 12.9% , D 14.46% , 10.21% . This reduction feels like more than it appears on paper. The only down-side is that it requires a slightly higher action than I could get it with a little more tension.

    After my many decades of farming, my knuckles have about had it, especially the middle knuckle on the middle finger of my left hand. This is making fretting increasingly difficult. I desired a mandolin that would enable me to be heard in a group setting, blend well in my duo with classical guitar, but give my fretting hand an easier time of it. I have instruments that are nearly as low tension as this one, but I just wanted something a little different. My duo plays a lot of renaissance-era music, and I wanted something that looks a little bit more the part without being an actual period instrument, just suggestive of it (no gigs right now anyway). I also wanted to make sure my fretting fingers would have enough 'real estate' despite the shortened scale, and a 1 and 3/16" nut provided that.

    So, I have just one thing more to do to it. I find the neck just a little too thick for my liking. First chance I get, I will give it a light re-profiling and be done with it. That will probably be mid-week. I'll report back my observations when that is done.
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    Default Re: New Build: 13 inch scale Flat-Top

    Bob, a quick search only finds a couple “stringless” guitars, no mandolins, which might be a solution for weak or painful hands. The guitar versions seem to have either physical buttons or infrared, but I’m thinking that touch screen versatility (and produceability) might be just the thing, even allowing switching between fretting and continuous (i.e. violin) playing. The picking part might remain mechanical for compatibility.
    Heresy, i know, but so were steel strings when they came along to save all those cats.

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  11. #7
    Barn Cat Mandolins Bob Clark's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Build: 13 inch scale Flat-Top

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard500 View Post
    Bob, a quick search only finds a couple “stringless” guitars, no mandolins, which might be a solution for weak or painful hands. The guitar versions seem to have either physical buttons or infrared, but I’m thinking that touch screen versatility (and produceability) might be just the thing, even allowing switching between fretting and continuous (i.e. violin) playing. The picking part might remain mechanical for compatibility.
    Heresy, i know, but so were steel strings when they came along to save all those cats.
    Thanks for the idea Richard, but thankfully, my fingers are not yet to that point. Let's hope they don't get there. Lower tension might help maintain them. In the interest of full disclosure, you know how MAS is. . . Bad knuckles just may have been, in part, an excuse to build a new mandolin for myself. One can't be too sure of one's own motives when it comes to MAS
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  12. #8
    Barn Cat Mandolins Bob Clark's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Build: 13 inch scale Flat-Top

    I thought some of you might be interested in seeing how I have revised this mandolin. This is the prototype of my 'Moggy' model (13" scale length mandolin). Thus far I have mainly been busy building my 'Kitten' model piccolo (sopranino) mandolins and have two more (#'s 5 and 6) coming along. Note the feline themes in the model names because these are being labeled 'Barn Cat Mandolins'. A similar 'Tom Cat' mandola is in the planning stages. After living with this mandolin for a while, and based on what I have learned from the subsequent piccolo mandolins, I decided to make the following changes to this mandolin:

    I re-profiled the neck to a much thinner softened V-shape as opposed to the chunky C shape it originally had. I also finished it as a speed neck.

    I thinned the nut and moved it 1/32" north for better intonation on the first few frets.

    I made a new one-piece bridge by joining two materials together (maple base and bone saddle). Detailed pictures of this are shown below.

    I took down the hardening oil finish, stained all but the top, and gave it an oil varnish finish. The blond top contrasts with the stained cherry and maple.

    I resolved a loose back brace issue through the sound hole to avoid removing the back.

    It plays and sounds wonderful. I am now much happier with it. I will make more of this model in the future. Here it is as it now looks:
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    Best wishes,

    Bob
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    Default Re: New Build: 13 inch scale Flat-Top

    Looks nice, Bob. I really like the elongated shape, the light top and the darker sides and back. And of course, I love the names >^..^<

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    Default Re: New Build: 13 inch scale Flat-Top

    How did you come up with the design for the bridge?

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    Default Re: New Build: 13 inch scale Flat-Top

    Really nice job there Bob! It doesn’t seem like there are many people making fine quality flat tops anymore. If I saw one like yours for sale I would be tempted to buy it! The elongated body shape reminds me a bit of the Regal Octofone scaled down. And your bridge design looks like it’s inspired by the Henry bridge, with the addition of a separate saddle. Some observations: it looks to me like the bridge base could stand to be a bit thinner. Instead of gluing the saddle to the base, had you thought of milling a slot for a removable saddle? And had you thought at all about incorporating an adjustable truss rod? If your design had those things it would really be pushing all my buttons! I love the use of cherry wood. In my opinion it is a fine tone wood, and extremely under-utilized in the instrument world. I know you are sourcing locally but if you look around it is possible to find figured cherry. I have seen it with a quilt like pattern. I was imagining you instrument with a back like that. Yummy! Keep up the good work!
    Don

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    Barn Cat Mandolins Bob Clark's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Build: 13 inch scale Flat-Top

    Thanks Sue, SBJ and Don. I appreciate the kind words, and the bridge questions and comments. This elongated body shape appeals to me, and is something very different from most flat-tops on the market. The sound also differs from the Army/Navy flat-tops which, as you know, I love. I am really trying for something a bit different here. Together with you two, Sue and Don, I think we have a little flat-top enthusiasts club!

    As for the bridges, as Don noted, the Red Henry bridges have been my jumping off point for experimentation. I have been doing quite a bit of experimenting during this prototyping phase of Barn Cat Mandolins, and I probably always will. I really like making bridges and think it's a good way to learn what these instruments are capable of. Thus far, this current bridge is my favorite.

    I have used three different woods (maple, cherry, black walnut) and two types of bone (deer antler and beef bone). The beef is harder and perhaps ever-so-slightly better, but I like concept of using naturally shed deer antlers I find, in this way. I'll probably keep using both.

    I started with straight one-piece bridges and then tried one piece bridges with slanted 'saddles'. Here's one in maple. That is one of four I have tried on this particular mandolin.
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    To offer a better sense of how these look with strings, here are two shots of one in Black Walnut on a recent piccolo (Kitten model) mandolin.
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    I have also tried a two piece bridge of the design Don has suggested, on this mandolin. This bridge in the photo is compensated, but it is easy to move back and forth between saddle types with these two-piece bridges. It avoids the need to fit the bridge to the top for each type. This antler saddle sits in a slot in the maple base. Shims can be used to raise the saddle if needed. Here's one of those.
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    As time goes on, if these mandolins prove to be of interest to others, I will probably offer a number of upgrades including an adjustable truss rod, as Don suggests. The main focus of my current builds is really to produce low-cost but nice piccolo mandolins that can help players get into that type of instrument, and also this alternative version of a flat-top mandolin. I am working at keeping the price point very reasonable. Also as Don suggests, I have some in nice figured wood coming including one of these Moggy models in crotched black walnut. I will be offering these for sale in the near future in a great Philadelphia area shop. I really can't say more here though, out of respect for Cafe rules and our Cafe administrators.
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    Default Re: New Build: 13 inch scale Flat-Top

    Oooooo! Crotched black walnut! Now you really have my attention. My lap dulcimer has a crotched black walnut back. What a nice companion a similar mandolin would be. I need to keep repeating to myself “ I’m trying to downsize! I’m trying to downsize!”.
    Don

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    Default Re: New Build: 13 inch scale Flat-Top

    Quote Originally Posted by multidon View Post
    Oooooo! Crotched black walnut! Now you really have my attention. My lap dulcimer has a crotched black walnut back. What a nice companion a similar mandolin would be. I need to keep repeating to myself “ I’m trying to downsize! I’m trying to downsize!”.
    Hi Don,

    This particular piece has a really interesting grain pattern to it, and I have already done my resawing of it but have not yet started on the mandolin it will be used on. I need to finish up these two piccolos first and then will do this one together with one in cherry. I like to build two at once. It seems to be a more efficient use of time. I haven't resawn that cherry yet, though, so I am not quite sure what I have. It is a nice quarter-sawn piece though.

    I'd be really interested in seeing a picture of the back of your lap dulcimer, if you have the time to post it. I like working with Black Walnut and am thrilled to have a good source of local wood. His supplies seem to be very limited but he tends to need large pieces for his work, so the small pieces I need are available to me. I have been bringing him some nice trunks of Chestnut and Locust. We seem to have a symbiosis of sorts.

    Oh, and as for downsizing, these instruments are just the thing, especially the piccolo mandolins. Being rather diminutive, you can 'downsize' while justifying new 'acquisitions'!
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    Default Re: New Build: 13 inch scale Flat-Top

    Chestnut from a hundred years ago or the replacement species? And what does your friend do with it? I’ve been saving a little of the old stuff. It’s light weight, but kinda coarse grained, so I haven’t done anything with it. Locust I know about, certainly for rot-resistant things, but anything else?

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    Default Re: New Build: 13 inch scale Flat-Top

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard500 View Post
    Chestnut from a hundred years ago or the replacement species? And what does your friend do with it? I’ve been saving a little of the old stuff. It’s light weight, but kinda coarse grained, so I haven’t done anything with it. Locust I know about, certainly for rot-resistant things, but anything else?
    Some decades ago I planted a grove of hybrid (Chinese X American) chestnut trees, to harvest the nuts for market. We packed and sold the nuts for a while, but they proved not to be profitable due to the amount of labor needed to separate the nuts from the very spiky hulls. Since then I have grazed lambs in that pasture through the summer. They fatten on the nuts before going off to market about now (tomorrow, in fact). Anyway, the trees are not as resistant to Chestnut Blight as one is led to believe. I cut them down as they decline. The trunks are surprisingly large.

    My friend is a fine furniture maker who does one-off custom work. He is a true artist. He likes 'distressed' wood and does a lot with the 'live' edges. He mills and kiln dries locally cut trees for his work. The stuff I have brought to him won't be used for some time (it needs to dry). He gives me some nice pieces of beautiful dry wood that are too small for his work in exchange.

    Locust is also used for woodworking. I only use it for fence posts, but depending on the kind of locust and individual tree, its wood can range from dark brown to orange, to yellow, and even green. Some people here on the Cafe certainly know more about the various species than I do. This grows abundantly in hedgerows on the farm and I only cut it when it falls in storms. We are getting strong winds much more frequently than we used to, though, so I've had quite a bit of late.
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    Default Re: New Build: 13 inch scale Flat-Top

    We planted a couple of those Chinese X American chestnut trees some decades ago as well. You're right they're not that resistant. One has since succumbed, and the other is quite peaked. Last year, we got about 2 dozen usable nuts; every other year, they have been prickly husks with underdeveloped nuts inside. A pollination issue perhaps? It is quite discouraging as our town has the nickname "Chestnut Country".

    I understand there are some better hybrids now.

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    Default Re: New Build: 13 inch scale Flat-Top

    I'm intrigued with your short scale soprano, scale length is 1" shorter than normal, more or less? I appreciate the reduction in tension, I am right now tuning my old mandolin down a full tone for the same reason, slightly lower tension. Both in respect of it's 80-odd years of age and my nerve-damaged fingers. I play guitar more than anything else, and I find I play scale lengths from 25.6" to 24" completely interchangeably. Do you notice the reduction in scale length, or is it quite transparent when playing?

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    Default Re: New Build: 13 inch scale Flat-Top

    I am confused. Maybe because I have started the egg nog early.

    What we have here is a small flatty standard tuned mandolin, kind of the larger brother of the piccolo mandolin described in the earlier thread. Am I correct.

    If that is correct I am applauding. I would encourage you to keep-a-going. Perhaps someday making a whole family of similarly built flat top mandos, from piccolo to cello. That would be exceedingly cool, and should you decide, extremely MAS inducing. I am a sucker for sets. If I have read volume one and started volume two, booksellers know they can count on me to purchase volume three, and four. And sets of flattys, that is excellent.

    I have nothing technical to add, just my enthusiasm.
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    Default Re: New Build: 13 inch scale Flat-Top

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Evans View Post
    I'm intrigued with your short scale soprano, scale length is 1" shorter than normal, more or less? I appreciate the reduction in tension, I am right now tuning my old mandolin down a full tone for the same reason, slightly lower tension. Both in respect of it's 80-odd years of age and my nerve-damaged fingers. I play guitar more than anything else, and I find I play scale lengths from 25.6" to 24" completely interchangeably. Do you notice the reduction in scale length, or is it quite transparent when playing?
    Hi Brian,

    I find I can switch back and forth between a 13" and 14" scale length with no problem at all. These flat-tops are also made for light gauge strings which keep tension low. Have a look at post five in this thread for calculated tensions.

    Best wishes, Bob
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    Default Re: New Build: 13 inch scale Flat-Top

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    I am confused. Maybe because I have started the egg nog early.

    What we have here is a small flatty standard tuned mandolin, kind of the larger brother of the piccolo mandolin described in the earlier thread. Am I correct.
    Hi Jeff,

    You are absolutely correct, even if, or maybe because , you started the eggnog early. Mind you, I am very much if favor of starting the eggnog early and if we lived nearby in a COVID free world, I'd join you!

    Thus far, I am making two sizes of flat-tops, the piccolo mandolin (the Kitten) and the short-scale mandolin (the Moggy). I have a mandola in planning stage (the Tom Cat). We'll see how that goes. Beyond that, maybe an OM (Lynx, perhaps?). I want to get more of these under my belt before I go that far, though.

    The cat-theme might seem a little hokey, but it amuses me. Maybe I am easily amused.

    The matching sets are in the works. Currently, I am building two piccolos that will each have a matching mandolin built next. One piccolo has a Cherry back and rim, the other has a Black Walnut back and rim. I have th wood ready to begin the matching Cherry and Black Walnut mandolins once the piccolos are done. Each instrument in the pair will be finished similarly.

    I keep saying I am going to make a double case to hold a matching piccolo and mandolin, but thus far I keep making instruments instead. They are a lot of fun to build and play. As you know, I really have a thing for these flat-tops! I am building instruments I enjoy in the hopes that others will enjoy them too.

    I appreciate your enthusiasm and will keep posting my progress.

    Best wishes, Bob
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    Default Re: New Build: 13 inch scale Flat-Top

    Bob, here is a picture of the back of my dulcimer. It doesn’t do the color justice but at least you can see the grain pattern. Book matched walnut. Upper part is crotched, bottom is flamed.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Don

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    Default Re: New Build: 13 inch scale Flat-Top

    Quote Originally Posted by multidon View Post
    Bob, here is a picture of the back of my dulcimer. It doesn’t do the color justice but at least you can see the grain pattern. Book matched walnut. Upper part is crotched, bottom is flamed.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Wow Don, that's gorgeous. Perfect book match, too. For a minute, I thought I was seeing a face in there! You have me chomping at the bit to get working with my piece. Thanks very much for posting it!
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