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Thread: Refinishing a Flatiron F5?

  1. #1

    Default Refinishing a Flatiron F5?

    Hi Folks,

    First post here (or first for many years anyway), very glad to be here! I have a query about the finish on my 1993 Flatiron, Bruce Weber-signed F5.

    The instrument is finished in a dark brown chocolate colour and the 'laquer' seems to be something quite thick and brittle. Lots of what I think are finish cracks and crazing and a few chips on corners here and there, in particular around the heel cap where the thickness of the finish is quite apparent.

    Using a torch it's very clear that this thick, brown finish is obscuring some beautiful fine-grained spruce on the top and finely flamed maple on the back and sides. After reading a few 'refinishing threads' I'm vaguely considering the possibilities for removing this dark brown finish and maybe redoing it in something much lighter (in both weight and colour) - maybe french polish shellac or some sort of catalysing oil ('Tru Oil'?). Motivation is about appearance, but also thinking of the possibility of enhancing the sound as it does seem a but constrained.

    These thoughts are all very tentative at this stage as it's my only mandolin atm and I'd need to get my workshop thoroughly reorganised beforehand.

    So what I wanted to ask was:
    - what would this thick, brittle finish on the F5 would be? Nitro-cellulose? Some sort of poly finish?

    - would the dark brown stain be in the finish itself or would it have been applied directly to the wood (and hence maybe harder to remove)?

    - what would be the best approach to finish removal? Chemical stripper? Alcohol? Simple 'abrasion'?

    Thoughts and insights would be much appreciated.

    Many thanks,

    Sam.

  2. #2
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Refinishing a Flatiron F5?

    Since you asked,
    Your plan is a direct path to destroying this instrument.

    Selling it to fund a purchase you like more seems the best approach to me.
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  4. #3

    Default Re: Refinishing a Flatiron F5?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill McCall View Post
    Your plan is a direct path to destroying this instrument.
    Thanks Bill. Rest assured I have neither a plan as such nor any intention to destroy my mandolin. I do acknowledge the value of an original finish (if that's what you are referring to in your advice). However I am curious as to what I'd be dealing with if it was to be refinished as the current material is clearly degrading. Thanks again.

  5. #4
    Registered User Aaron Bohnen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Refinishing a Flatiron F5?

    With respect for Bill's suggestion (which I'd instinctively tend to agree with) but also with respect for the OP's desire to consider a refinish, maybe ask Bruce Weber about it? If you call up Montana Luthierie you'll probably get Bruce himself on the phone - he may be able to offer some insight or lay out what some options might be.

    best luck!
    Gavin Baird F4 & F5, Weber Octar, Gibson K-1, Guild D50, Martin D35, Yairi DY-84, etc...

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  7. #5
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    Default Re: Refinishing a Flatiron F5?

    You may destroy much of the value but done properly you won't destroy the instrument. It is crucial to know what kind of finish you have to determine the best way to remove the finish. I do tend to agree that it is a crap shoot at best and you are better off selling the instrument and buying one you like better.

  8. #6
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    Default Re: Refinishing a Flatiron F5?

    Stripping old finish off an instrument without significantly thinning the plates is a problem. For a new finish to look right and adhere well, all vestiges of the original finish and any chemical strippers must be removed. Chemical strippers can drive some of the old finish deeper into the wood, inhibiting the appearance of a new finish. Most of the chemical strippers are highly toxic, and will melt plastic bindings. If they are used, the bindings must be masked off and stripped by mechanical means, and the stripped surfaces still must be sanded.

    Bruce Weber is available by phone, and will talk to you. I recently consulted with him about what kind of finish was used on an early Weber that had come to my shop for repair, and he was friendly and informative.

    My guess is that a '93 Flatiron would have been finished with whatever particular potion of nitrocellulose lacquer, softeners, and conditioners that Gibson was using that year; but that is only a guess. It is my understanding that Gibson changed the formula of their finishes somewhat frequently. I do not know whether even Bruce would know for sure exactly what was used at the time, since he was not running the company. You will only know how much of the color is in the finish and how much is in the wood when you actually strip the instrument.

    My advice would be this: If you really want to refinish the mandolin and the plates are not too thin, carefully strip the instrument mechanically with cabinet scraper and sandpaper. A small amount of alcohol combined with a scraper might facilitate removal of the upper finish layers, but it is risky. Do not use it on the lower layers or it will drive the old finish deeper into the wood. If the plates are already thin, do not refinish the instrument. Either accept it as it is, or find another instrument that you like.

    If I was going to refinish a high grade mandolin, I would use only French polished shellac, violin grade varnish, or nitrocellulose lacquer. I would not use Tru-Oil.

  9. #7
    Registered User j. condino's Avatar
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    Default Re: Refinishing a Flatiron F5?

    '93 was probably Fullerplast or one of the similar early modern poly finishes that everyone on the west coast was using. There is no intrinsic value in one of those finishes- they are simply what came with the instrument; thick and bulky, but....I'd challenge any one of you here try to finish 500 mandolins a year in a factory setting and see what they look like. They often look like you dipped the thing in a 55 gallon bucket and then let it hang to dry. If refinished well, you'll not only change the visuals, but the voice may improve with a lighter more responsive coating. It takes and extremely skilled person to match or better a factory finish in regards to color and balance. 95 % of the attempts look like old used diapers and are a blotchy mess that significantly devalue the instrument...Call Bruce; he's a nice fellow and likes to chat it up.

    It would be good to remind everyone here that in many countries the word "torch" is what we in the US would call a flashlight, as in, "I shined a bright light on it....". It is NOT our common use of torch as in a propane or MAP gas canister with a very high flame on one end used for soldering, burning, boyhood destruction, and other high temperature activities....
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  10. #8
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    Default Re: Refinishing a Flatiron F5?

    Yeah, but if it's an old polyurethane finish, it might take a blow torch to get it off there . . .

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  12. #9

    Default Re: Refinishing a Flatiron F5?

    To the naysayers. This was a 1992 Flatiron stripped by previous owner and refinished with varnish by Mike Black. It sounded excellent when done and the value went up since it was a varnish finish and not a poly. I hated to sell it but grateful I had the time with it. I wish I had it back. If I recall correctly, Mike was happy that some of the color was left on the instrument because that was an indication that the wood was not thinned by the stripping job and he was able to incorporate the former coloring in to the new burst without removing old and not affecting new. I traded this stripped for an electric.
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  14. #10
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    Default Re: Refinishing a Flatiron F5?

    That's really good work. Most after-market refinishes are not so well done. For those who want to have an instrument refinished, it is definitely worthwhile to go to someone who has lots of experience and a knack for the work.

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    Registered User Sue Rieter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Refinishing a Flatiron F5?

    Quote Originally Posted by j. condino View Post
    It would be good to remind everyone here that in many countries the word "torch" is what we in the US would call a flashlight, as in, "I shined a bright light on it....". It is NOT our common use of torch as in a propane or MAP gas canister with a very high flame on one end used for soldering, burning, boyhood destruction, and other high temperature activities....
    Excuse the diversion, but this right here is pretty funny and made my day
    My mother-in-law had a kitchen table with a mark on it from a boyhood experiment with making gunpowder. Similar but different.

    Sue

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  18. #12
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Refinishing a Flatiron F5?

    Quote Originally Posted by thistle3585 View Post
    To the naysayers. This was a 1992 Flatiron stripped by previous owner and refinished with varnish by Mike Black. It sounded excellent when done and the value went up since it was a varnish finish and not a poly. I hated to sell it but grateful I had the time with it. I wish I had it back. If I recall correctly, Mike was happy that some of the color was left on the instrument because that was an indication that the wood was not thinned by the stripping job and he was able to incorporate the former coloring in to the new burst without removing old and not affecting new. I traded this stripped for an electric.
    That shows with enough skill and money, wonderful things can happen.

    With all due respect, by the OP’s questions, I thought he might not have Mike Black’s skill. That said, wonderful work can be done by someone with little experience. But that’s not the way to bet.
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  20. #13
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Refinishing a Flatiron F5?

    Quote Originally Posted by Savvas View Post
    Hi Folks,

    First post here (or first for many years anyway), very glad to be here! I have a query about the finish on my 1993 Flatiron, Bruce Weber-signed F5.

    The instrument is finished in a dark brown chocolate colour and the 'laquer' seems to be something quite thick and brittle. Lots of what I think are finish cracks and crazing and a few chips on corners here and there, in particular around the heel cap where the thickness of the finish is quite apparent.

    Using a torch it's very clear that this thick, brown finish is obscuring some beautiful fine-grained spruce on the top and finely flamed maple on the back and sides. After reading a few 'refinishing threads' I'm vaguely considering the possibilities for removing this dark brown finish and maybe redoing it in something much lighter (in both weight and colour) - maybe french polish shellac or some sort of catalysing oil ('Tru Oil'?). Motivation is about appearance, but also thinking of the possibility of enhancing the sound as it does seem a but constrained.

    These thoughts are all very tentative at this stage as it's my only mandolin atm and I'd need to get my workshop thoroughly reorganised beforehand.

    So what I wanted to ask was:
    - what would this thick, brittle finish on the F5 would be? Nitro-cellulose? Some sort of poly finish?

    - would the dark brown stain be in the finish itself or would it have been applied directly to the wood (and hence maybe harder to remove)?

    - what would be the best approach to finish removal? Chemical stripper? Alcohol? Simple 'abrasion'?

    Thoughts and insights would be much appreciated.

    Many thanks,

    Sam.
    It's your mandolin, you own it. It's your choice. Either way it will still be yours. Have at it. I agree, call Bruce and see what it was. Heck, he might even do the work for you. My Flatiron didn't seem particularly thick finish wise. The problem with chemicals is the binding, the problem with scraping is the thickness of the wood. If it's a model without the elevated fingerboard you might run into some filler of some sort, those are some smooth joints. If you want to take the chance I say go for it.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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  21. #14

    Default Re: Refinishing a Flatiron F5?

    To the OP, as you can see in the excellent pictures provided by thistle, F5s are complicated critters. Refinishing by someone who has experience with blending colors for a burst and scraping binding is doable. For someone with no such experience, you're biting off a big chunk. As you can see, the scroll has some area below the binding where end grain of the top is exposed. This necessitates some very dark coloration to mask. When you apply color to a mandolin, you have to go back and scrape the color off the binding to bring it back to white before topcoating. Whatever finish you choose to refinish with, I would recommend something durable. The nature of playing mandolin involves a lot of brushing against the instrument, especially the soft top and a softer finish won't hold up well.

    I worked on a similar instrument for a client from the 80s, also stained dark brown. Perhaps that was their trademark color back then. I'm not sure about the content of the finish, but his mandolin is a loud, takes very little effort to get a big sound out of it. When you say the sound is "constrained" are you meaning quiet or a muted tone? The one I worked on has a lot of headroom because of the carve of the instrument. Some of the caution advice you've received here is because removing wood from the top will likely reduce the punch of the instrument. Good luck in the adventure.

  22. #15
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    Default Re: Refinishing a Flatiron F5?

    I've used chemical strippers, but only when I knew what they would do. Easier to get by with if a very dark or antiqued finish is going on!

    Mechanical removal is the sensitive approach. A friend and I took an overcoat of mystery crap off a nice ca 1900 Italian violin that was actually worth something. Scrapers, very sharp, and a magnifying headset. On other jobs, I've used dental tools to finish finish bits out of detail work and pores. This is not for the impatient.

    If I were finishing a mandolin, I'd use either a spirit varnish with lots of polishing or a standard violin oil varnish. Mandolin would look nice with a good ground and madder colors in oil varnish!
    Stephen Perry

  23. #16

    Default Re: Refinishing a Flatiron F5?

    When I was doing a lot of trading, I had Mike refinish the F5 as well as a Gibson Sheraton A. I don't know if he is still taking on that type of work but if I were to get another one then he'd be the first person I'd call. I was floored by his pricing and didn't think twice about boxing them up and sending them over but he's got a huge reputation as a builder now so I'm not sure that I could afford him. He is a tremendous guy and my next new mandolin will come from him.

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