Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: Some questions/concerns about bar frets

  1. #1

    Default Some questions/concerns about bar frets

    I recently bought a 1929 Martin Style 20 in very nice condition. The mandolin features bar frets, which Martin used until 1934. The frets are in decent shape, but seem quite tiny to me. I don't know what the height on these things should be. I contacted TJ Thompson about obtaining replacement bar stock. He replied that there currently no suppliers of bar stock in the US. He said that he could draw down some close to the right size but it would be up to me to file it down to final dimensions. As far as replacing with T frets, I understand that not to be a possibility, as the slots are too wide and the bar slot design necessitates
    the solid bar installation to maintain neck straightness.

    I've set up the mandolin to 1.6mm at the 12th fret on the G string. It plays acceptably if not perfectly for me. Certainly some of it is the difference in feel from T frets

    Any ideas or comments?

  2. #2
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,077

    Default Re: Some questions/concerns about bar frets

    1.6 mm. above the fret tops is a reasonable action for a mandolin. Martin tended to grind their bar frets down pretty low, and this does not help playability. A height of around .040" above the fretboard will be more playable. Also, the crowning on old bar frets is often less than desirable. If you have sufficient fret height, some recrowning might help the playability. If not:

    1. Bar frets can be replaced with new bar stock wire of a similar width. It is a lot of work, and something you don't want to try yourself unless you already have considerable experience re-fretting instruments. They will still feel like bar frets. If TJ Thompson is not able to roll wire down to the correct size, you might want to contact George Gruhn's shop. I believe they have a rolling machine, and they may be able to roll stock thin enough to be suitable for a Martin mandolin.

    2. In the old days, bar frets were sometimes raised by removing the frets, inserting thin shims in the slots, and putting the old wire back in on top of the shims. Also a lot of work.

    3. I have successfully replaced bar frets with T frets in 10 mandolins with a technique of my own. A couple of these instruments are in my possession and have remained stable for 15 years or more. PM me if you wish to discuss the matter further.

    Do you know what the thickness of your fret wire is? Wire I have removed from old Martin and Vega mandolins measures .032" and .037", but I do not know which size goes with which brand, or whether the wire on your mandolin matches either of these measurements.
    Last edited by rcc56; Aug-15-2020 at 4:00pm. Reason: I remembered several more mandolins that I had converted.

  3. #3
    Registered User jim simpson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Wheeling, WV
    Posts
    5,508

    Default Re: Some questions/concerns about bar frets

    I had a Martin to restore/repair a few years back, I too was having difficulty finding replacements. I did as rcc56 mentioned in his # 2., I removed the bars, shimmed the slots and reinstalled them upside down. I then was able to get plenty of frets exposed for leveling and crowning.
    Old Hometown, Cabin Fever String Band

  4. #4
    Registered User j. condino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Asheville, NC
    Posts
    2,758

    Default Re: Some questions/concerns about bar frets

    I'm pretty sure I have a full set that I removed from a 1930 000 Martin with banjo tuners years ago sitting in a drawer. (That was an amazing, ultralight guitar!) Call the shop on Monday and we can chat it up.

    Personally, I don't like playing on them, but they came standard on some incredible sounding old guitars, so I understand the desire.
    www.condino.com

    Crafted by hand in a workshop powered by the sun.

  5. #5
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,077

    Default Re: Some questions/concerns about bar frets

    In my experience, the bar fret wire that Martin used on their guitars was considerably wider than what they used on their mandolins, usually from .047" to .051" wide, occasionally perhaps a little wider. So if you used that wire, you would have to find a way to work it down to the correct thickness for your instrument.
    Last edited by rcc56; Aug-15-2020 at 4:19pm.

  6. #6
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    S.W. Wisconsin
    Posts
    7,507

    Default Re: Some questions/concerns about bar frets

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    In my experience, the bar fret wire that Martin used on their guitars was considerably wider than what they used on their mandolins.
    It is wider and came in various widths to straighten the neck when it needed it. I refretted my '28 2-17 with new bar wire I got from Martin when it discontinued it decades ago. I was lucky and the wire I had was the next width up from what was there and the neck came out great. They are harder to crown compared to T frets, but it's not bad to play.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

  7. #7
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,077

    Default Re: Some questions/concerns about bar frets

    One thing I know for sure about profiling new bar frets is that you'll have to file, file, and file some more. Then the next day, you might have to file some more . . .

    About 20 years ago, Martin was selling bar fret stock in three sizes: .047", .051", and .055". It appears to be rolled steel rather than nickel silver. I have some old nickel silver stock that was reportedly the last batch that was rolled 50 or so years ago when their old rolling machine gave up the ghost. It is a mess, and varies between .049" and .060" in thickness. Unfortunately, I do not have any of their mandolin stock, except for stuff I have pulled out of old instruments. That's why I started looking for alternative techniques.

  8. #8
    Registered User Steve 2E's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    406

    Default Re: Some questions/concerns about bar frets

    I’m not a repair person and please forgive my ignorance. I haven’t researched this subject, but is it possible to somehow fill the bar fret slots and recut the slots for T frets?

  9. #9
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,077

    Default Re: Some questions/concerns about bar frets

    That is not an ignorant question at all. Yes, that has been done. Sometimes it will work, and sometimes the neck will bow after a period of time.

  10. #10
    Registered User Steve 2E's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    406

    Default Re: Some questions/concerns about bar frets

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    That is not an ignorant question at all. Yes, that has been done. Sometimes it will work, and sometimes the neck will bow after a period of time.
    So the advantage to leaving bar frets is the ability to help adjust the action when there’s no truss rod adjustment available? Makes sense. T frets always need to be flush with the fretboard. I think I get it. Thanks

  11. #11
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Forest Grove, Oregon
    Posts
    2,775

    Default Re: Some questions/concerns about bar frets

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve 2E View Post
    I’m not a repair person and please forgive my ignorance. I haven’t researched this subject, but is it possible to somehow fill the bar fret slots and recut the slots for T frets?
    You can certainly do that and if your fret saw has its kerf set to match the tang on your fretwire (with approriate clearance), you'd minimize potential neck bow.
    Not all the clams are at the beach

    Arrow Manouche
    Arrow Jazzbo
    Arrow G
    Clark 2 point
    Gibson F5L
    Gibson A-4
    Ratliff CountryBoy A

  12. #12
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,077

    Default Re: Some questions/concerns about bar frets

    To answer Steve, not quite. The bar frets add considerably more stiffness to the fingerboard [and neck] than T frets. Martin was aware of this, and it was not an accident that they immediately started reinforcing their necks with a metal bar when they stopped using bar frets.

    Necks without a reinforcement are less likely to bow when they are fretted with bar frets than they are when fretted with T frets. We don't like necks to bow. When they do, action will eventually have to be raised to eliminate fret buzz.

    If you do fill and re-fret with T frets, it is essential to get a really good tight fit with the new frets. The tighter the fit, the less chance that the neck will bow later. There is another way to handle it that is less labor intensive, but it is the one repair technique that I prefer to reserve as my "trade secret."

    Most people don't realize this, but the old Gibson mandolins that were built before the advent of the truss rod were reinforced with a triangular insert of very dense maple; and the Lyon and Healy carved top mandolins had laminated necks that had a center strip of ebony to add strength to the neck.
    Last edited by rcc56; Aug-15-2020 at 5:56pm.

  13. #13
    Registered User Steve 2E's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    406

    Default Re: Some questions/concerns about bar frets

    Thanks, I didn’t realize the frets had so much to do with neck stability. I’m getting closer to getting it.

  14. #14
    Registered User Brian560's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    131

    Default Re: Some questions/concerns about bar frets

    I just had the frets leveled and dressed on my Martin. The first few frets had groves in them, and the luthier had no problem grinding the groves out. He never mentioned replacing them. I did notice that he seated them in the slots before the grind and polish, I suspect bar frets move around a bit over time. I would be hesitant on having frets replaced that are not damaged. For play-ability, I wouldn't expect a near 100 year old mandolin with a short scale length and bar frets to play the same as a modern instrument. Also one thing that has not been mentioned is a neck reset. I don't know how common it is to have those done on these old Martin mandolins

  15. #15

    Default Re: Some questions/concerns about bar frets

    Bob Chuckrow is caring for the style 20, replacing the bar frets with T frets, using his technique of crimping the tangs. I would have left them as is except they they were incredibly low to where I couldn't get clear notes and my wrist was paining me.

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •