Vega Bowl Back

[Charliemaine]

Purchased a Vega bowl back off Ebay a few weeks ago. It's structurally in excellent condition and all original parts are intact. The action is nice and low and the neck is straight.

I've removed the old board and bar frets and will replace it with a new ebony board and T-frets.

The inlayed tuners are useless so I will retrofit and install modern tuners.

Here is the mandolin before I started the restoration:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vega-Vintag...72.m2749.l2649

The seller accepted a lower offer so after some research I decided to purchase this one.

[Charliemaine]

I'll slightly modify a set of StewMac's Golden Age tuners by cutting off the top and bottom and drill a couple more mounting holes. These will sit in a routed channel like the original tuners. The original back cover can then be used.

I fit a new bone saddle into the ebony bridge. It will also get a new bone nut.

The crack next to the fingerboard has been cleaned out and glued. It is very stable with the top brace running perpendicular underneath. The new board will cover this completely so it will not be seen.

[Greg Mirken]

If you are converting a bar-fret instrument to T frets and making other modifications you should not consider this job a restoration. I'm not being judgemental, but a restoration means returning the item to original condition.
These days "conservation", meaning making the item (instrument or otherwise) serviceable without erasing its history, is often preferred to restoration.

[Charliemaine]

If you are converting a bar-fret instrument to T frets and making other modifications you should not consider this job a restoration. I'm not being judgemental, but a restoration means returning the item to original condition.
These days "conservation", meaning making the item (instrument or otherwise) serviceable without erasing its history, is often preferred to restoration.

Point taken. I chose restoration simply because I'm restoring it to playable condition. Without the modifications it would be unserviceable, just a wall hanger. I guess you could also call what I'm doing a conversion. Thanks for clearing that up.

[rcc56]

The term "restoration" does not disturb me in this particular case. You are simply replacing parts that are no longer functional and restoring the instrument to playable condition. If you were change the inlays or do unnecessary finish work, I might avoid the term "restoration."

And if someone wants to play on bar frets ground down to nothing for the sake of "originality," that's fine with me also. Personally, I prefer frets that are high enough to do the job.

If an instrument is going to be maintained in playable condition for many decades, something will have to be replaced sooner or later.

A couple of years ago, I replaced the fingerboard on a c. 1930 Gibson A-4 because the frets were badly mislocated. The intonation on the instrument was so bad that it would not play in tune even in the first position. I suppose I could have removed the old fingerboard, removed the binding, filled in the old fret slots, cut new slots in the correct position, and re-fretted it with old wire pulled out of other Gibson mandolins, but I would probably still have had to replace the bindings. I don't feel the least bit guilty about installing a new CNC cut board with modern frets. I reproduced the inlays, installed similar bindings, and tinted the binding to match the original cover. I even made tortoise celluloid side dots from scratch for it, but that wasn't worth the effort-- you couldn't tell the difference between them and black dots after they were installed unless you looked in bright light with a magnifying glass.

In that case, I suppose you could term the repair a "rescue" rather than a "restoration," but whatever you call it, the mandolin was unplayable and suitable only to hang on the wall before I worked on it. I called it a correctly restored instrument, and nobody griped about it.

I suppose if you wanted to be a stickler about the bowl back, you could tint the buttons on the new tuners. Good luck on finding a matching pair of original period tuners that work well enough to make the instrument playable. If you wish, you can save the old fingerboard and tuners for posterity, and if you sell the instrument, the new owner can hang them on the wall for a trophy. Or, he could re-install the original fingerboard and tuners and hang the whole instrument on the wall as a trophy. Since it wouldn't be playable in that condition, it wouldn't be good for anything else . . .

[Greg Mirken]

rcc56, I understand what you are saying, and I appreciate your work on that A4. I too assume my work will be examined under bright light with a magnifying glass.
I recommend the book "Artifacts in Use" by John Watson. It is about the conservation of pipe organs, but the philosophical dilemma is the same...

[Jim Garber]

I, too, was a bit confused by the OP’s initial description: “ It's structurally in excellent condition and all original parts are intact. The action is nice and low and the neck is straight.“ If that were so then it sounded to me that it was playable from the start. I guess if he said that the frets were ground down to nothing and the tuners tears were non-functional then I do understand the decisions made.

One if my best vintage bowlbacks is a Vega from the same era. The OP’s is a style 1 and mine is a style 3. I got mine in what I would call similar condition but never did any work on it except out excellent strings on it. It is an excellent playing and sounding mandolin as-is.

However I assume that it was only the description of the OP’s mandolin’s original condition that guided his decisions.

In any case, I am not at all against fixing what needs to be done to make a mandolin playable including sacrificing originality, if necessary.

[Richard500]

Restoration, conservation, modification, preservation; options. The true restoration crowd believes in strict originality as vital to either monetary value or accuracy of the artifact. Touch the finish, or change anything, and you’ve ruined it. Keeping functionality (playability) may involve repair, modification, even structural changes, but for a bowl back that isn’t particularly unique, the loss of value is not important. This Vega may lie in some gray zone.
In cars, there’s also this spectrum of approaches, where total originality drives market value at one end, even if the end result is never driven. At the other end, a hulk is saved from the junkyard by becoming a hot rod, a resto-mod or just something with substitutions. Is it ok to paint something a new color? Yes to some, no to others. Pick your club. But remember, the crate V8 you’ve dropped into that old Jaguar may attract some sneers, even if it actually runs a whole lot better.

[Charliemaine]

My apologies if my first post was somewhat vague.

To be clear the mandolin is structurally sound with all the original hardware on the instrument and the finish in excellent condition, minus the usual dings.
I did mention that the tuners were useless, meaning non functional. The fretboard and frets were worn to the point of needing to be replaced so again non functional.

I bought this mandolin to play for my own personal pleasure and not as a collected piece. That said I'm still from the camp of preserving as much of the originality as possible.

Since no replaceable tuners are available I decided to replace them in the same manner as the originals were. That is, by routing a channel and inlaying them under the original metal cover. StewMac's golden age tuners seem to be a good choice, but the width of them required new wood to be installed. The peg spacing of the old tuners were practically the same and the new tuners drop in just fine.

At this point I could just drill new holes and mount the new tuners to the back of the peghead. But I want to use the back cover plate as it was intended. So sticking to the original design I'll route new channels and mount the new tuners in the same fashion.

As far as removing and installing a new board and frets, I consider these to be replaceable items. In time these wear out and will need new ones installed to make the instrument serviceable.

I have a background in violinmaking and the same thing applies to pegs and fingerboards, they simply wear out and eventually need replacements.

My wish for this mandolin is after it's upgrade/repair/conversion it will be cherished and played by others for many more years after I'm gone.

[Charliemaine]

Peg holes plugged and new wood glued in. The back cover plate will attach using the original holes and screws.

[Charliemaine]

My next project is a 7 string banjo in good condition but missing some hardware. My plan for this instrument is to save as much of the originality as possible. It's missing parts have been located in the UK which is nice. But again in this case the pegs and bridge are missing but more than likely if they were there would need replacing. I do plan to try and save the fretless board and fret markers.

https://www.banjohangout.org/topic/367982

[Jim Garber]

Thanks so much for clarifying the condition. Now I get it. I love my Vega. BTW I highly recommend Dogal Calace RW92B string sets.

[Charliemaine]

Thanks so much for clarifying the condition. Now I get it. I love my Vega. BTW I highly recommend Dogal Calace RW92B string sets.

Hi Jim,

I should have been more specific in my post. This is the first bowl back I worked on with the inlayed tuners. I wouldn't buy another one because of the crappy tuners and no replacements. Glad to hear your Vega still have the original tuners and are working well. And Thanks for info concerning the Style 1. I couldn't find any info on the different Vega Styles. I will try the strings you recommend. Where do you purchase them? I have a new set of TI strings so I will set it up with those for now. I do like them alot.

[Charliemaine]

Well plan A isn't going to work the tuner shafts are too short so the channels would not leave enough material at the edges. So plan B is to mount the tuners to the back of the pegbox. This is getting away from the original design but IMO this method is structually stronger, since the peg head is solid wood without two slotted channels.

Too bad though I really like the fancy back plates especially the engraved ones.

[Jim Garber]

Re: strings: if you go back to my post #12 above and click on Dogal it goes to a link to Bernunzio.com. At the moment they are out of stock, however. You can contact to see when they expect them to be in stock.

Were the tuners completely broken and non functional ? I have had some bad tuners but most of them work well enough. I also have accumulated piles of old tuners and prob have a set or two that would work.

[Richard500]

Maybe there’s some cost to repairing those tuners and a machinist might be involved, but I can’t imagine what would make it very expensive. In a sense, the inset tuners with their much shorter lever arms (post to gear) have less problem with peghead hole dimensions or torque than our newer ones. Plus, the top buttons have less change of shifting when the instrument is resting on a flat surface. I have two mandos so equipped, and other than opening the plate to look, clean and lubricate, they seem adequate. I do understand that a performer benefits from better ergonomics on stage, less backlash, different ratios.
Also, re. the too-short shafts; I commented recently that this can be addressed.

[Charliemaine]

Re: strings: if you go back to my post #12 above and click on Dogal it goes to a link to Bernunzio.com. At the moment they are out of stock, however. You can contact to see when they expect them to be in stock.

Were the tuners completely broken and non functional ? I have had some bad tuners but most of them work well enough. I also have accumulated piles of old tuners and prob have a set or two that would work.

Yes the tuners were completely non functional. I tried cleaning and lubing. Nothing helped and I did look for original replacements on Ebay and the internet but to no avail. I should have tried here. I'm happy with the Stewmac set. I couldn't see spending $500.00 on a set of Waverly's for a bowl back . The Golden Age tuners function much better than the originals.

Thanks for the Bernunzio link. They're a great company and I'll be sure to try those strings.

[Charliemaine]

This Vega bowl back on Ebay looks very similar to mine. However, it doesn't have inlaid tuners rather a solid peghead and the ribs are not Brazilian rosewood. Would this still be considered a Style 1? When did Vega stop using inlaid tuners?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-190...wAAOSwE-Je~e2x

[Jim Garber]

Here are some catalog pages for the numbered Vega bowlbacks. Circa 1910 probably.

[Charliemaine]

I was wondering about the neck wood not matching mahogany. Never would have guessed that they used cedar.

Good stuff, Thanks!

[Bill McCall]

Its probably Spanish cedar, which is very similar to real mahogany, same family. I believe early Martins used Spanish cedar necks, although I don't know for how long. And it was also popular for cigar boxes, probably due to its easy workability.

[Greg Mirken]

"Spanish cedar" it is, which is neither Spanish nor cedar. It has a "cedar-like" aroma.

[Charliemaine]

I have a 7 string banjo made circa 1880's and was wondering type of wood made the neck so light. Now I know. It looks identical to the Vega mandolin neck wood. I'm told the banjo was probably made by the Buckbee company in NY who made parts for distributors in England. So, perhaps Vega and Buckbee sourced spanish cedar from the same place. The two necks are remarkably similar in appearance. What's more remarkable is the banjo neck's original fret board has only a very thin veneer and the neck is still perfectly straight. Pretty amazing to see a neck made 140 years ago still in great shape, no doubt due to the use of gut/nylon strings which both instruments were designed for.

[Jim Garber]

The Vega was never intended for gut strings. It is very possible that the banjo was.

I have what is most likely a Buckbee banjo probably dating to the 1870s. I would love to see yours. Is there a reason you assume it was sold in England vs. US?

Here's my Buckbee pony banjo. I believe that the frets are actually inserted directly into the wood of the neck.

[Charliemaine]

Sorry, I meant light gauge strings on the Vega and gut on the banjo. I inserted a link to the banjo in post #11.

It has a Kohler & Son brand on the dowel stick, but I was told it looks like a Buckbee.



I like your banjo, It looks nice and chunky. What type of wood is the neck made from? The pot and hardware look similar, one piece maple steamed rim?