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Thread: Spirit Varnish for a mandolin?

  1. #26
    Registered User sebastiaan56's Avatar
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    Default Re: Spirit Varnish for a mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    How do you generally apply spirit varnish -- brush or spray on?
    I pad it on with a french polishing rubber. I have brushed it as well

  2. #27
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Spirit Varnish for a mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by sebastiaan56 View Post
    I pad it on with a french polishing rubber. I have brushed it as well
    Thanks. I was also planning on using a brush after watching this video but im my test application on a piece of scrap did not go nearly so smoothly? Seems to me my brush runs out of varnish much sooner and as a result the coverage I end up with is not this smooth and uniform? As a result my thoughts are tend toward spraying it on?
    Bernie
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  3. #28

    Default Re: Spirit Varnish for a mandolin?

    Pablo Requena has a series of 9 videos on YouTube that helped me understand how to apply French polish. He is applying it on a guitar but the same principles should apply to other instruments.

    Danny

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  5. #29
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    Default Re: Spirit Varnish for a mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodbldr View Post
    Pablo Requena has a series of 9 videos on YouTube that helped me understand how to apply French polish. He is applying it on a guitar but the same principles should apply to other instruments.

    Danny
    Thanks I'll check them out. I was finding that my varnish did not see to wash over the surface so smoothly like the guy in the video (that I linked in post #27). He somehow got a thin, smooth and uniform wash of varnish over the entire back side of that violin with a single bush full. That was not my experience where my brush (red sable) seemed to "run out" of varnish rather quickly -- requiring a lot more "brushfulls" and all kinds of messy issues with the varnish getting sticky and unmanageable too quickly. This gave a patchy-streaky look with an uneven distribution of the varnish over the surface.
    Bernie
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  6. #30

    Default Re: Spirit Varnish for a mandolin?

    When I apply the polish in the beginning it looks uneven, but the layers build/mix together as they are added. I notice it beginning to even out after about 5-6 polishing sessions. That is where watching those videos will help, you can see how everything builds until it is ready to buff out. Here is a picture of a curly walnut/spruce guitar I polished following Pablo's techniques.

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  7. #31
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    Default Re: Spirit Varnish for a mandolin?

    That's very nice work. Was your recipe pure shellac or did you add sandarac and/or mastic?

  8. #32

    Default Re: Spirit Varnish for a mandolin?

    Just dewaxed blond shellac, 1 lb cut. I plan on trying to add sandarac and mastic for the next batch to try.

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    Default Re: Spirit Varnish for a mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodbldr View Post
    When I apply the polish in the beginning it looks uneven, but the layers build/mix together as they are added. I notice it beginning to even out after about 5-6 polishing sessions. That is where watching those videos will help, you can see how everything builds until it is ready to buff out. Here is a picture of a curly walnut/spruce guitar I polished following Pablo's techniques.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The guitar finish looks wonderful! I'm about half way through the Pablo Requena videos and they are very informative. Did you use epoxy to seal the rosewood also? I'm wondering to if these techniques would work as smoothly on a mandolin or violin since one has few flat surfaces to work with on these instruments?
    Bernie
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  10. #34
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    Default Re: Spirit Varnish for a mandolin?

    Curves are not a problem with French polishing. Corners are. That's one reason we like to finish necks and bodies separately before we glue them together.
    For the record, corners are also a problem with sprayed finishes. And also when we touch up or refinish older instruments.

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  12. #35

    Default Re: Spirit Varnish for a mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    The guitar finish looks wonderful! I'm about half way through the Pablo Requena videos and they are very informative. Did you use epoxy to seal the rosewood also? I'm wondering to if these techniques would work as smoothly on a mandolin or violin since one has few flat surfaces to work with on these instruments?
    Thanks for the compliment. I used z-poxy finishing resin to pore fill. I can attest to the application of polish being more difficult with corners. For the walnut guitar shown above I didn't use a fine enough abrasive on the body and neck before buffing out, and had to do redo the finish with the guitar assembled. I had issues with the corners that are not noticeable until you are about a foot or two from the guitar.

    Danny

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  14. #36
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    Default Re: Spirit Varnish for a mandolin?

    Bump.

    'Just wanted to bring this thread back up to the surface for folks who have not read it; there is some excellent information in here.
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  16. #37
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    Default Re: Spirit Varnish for a mandolin?

    Thanks for bumping it up. I missed this thread and it is a nice read. Now I need to check my online shellac flake purchase. I honestly don't know if it was dewaxed.
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  17. #38
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    Default Re: Spirit Varnish for a mandolin?

    I ran into some information the about the button lac form of shellac that got me thinking and I wanted to see if anyone here has already experimented with using button lac for mandolin spirit varnish.
    From what I read on shellac.net, "Heat during processing polymerizes the Shellac resin, resulting in a tough abrasion & moisture resistant finishing material." Have any of you experimented with using button lac in lieu of seedlac or shellac in a 1704 recipe? Does it yield a tougher, more moisture resistant finish than would otherwise be achieved with the modified 1704 recipe from violins.ca? (That's what I'm currently planning to follow when I get to that point in my build.)

    Relating to wax in shellac, can anyone help me understand why some people are 100% "anti-wax" in their shellac, and others use seedlac and make no mention of dewaxing. Is it all a matter of what may be applied over the shellac? If more shellac (or spirit varnish), wax in the shellac is no problem. If the shellac is a seal coat under some other finish, then being dewaxed is critical for bonding of the second finish. Is any of that close to right?
    As always, thank you for all the help this community gives!

  18. #39
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    Default Re: Spirit Varnish for a mandolin?

    I remember a post on Maestronet about someone trying button lac in 1704 without success. It might be that the wax content of seed lac is part of what makes 1704 varnish what it is. I don't know what heat the lac melts in the process of making buttons, but the heat used in making 1704 (about 80 celsius for boiling alcohol) might do something similar.

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  20. #40
    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Spirit Varnish for a mandolin?

    All I can say for sure is that blonde dewaxed shellac just "works" and gives a great finish. It is certainly delicate compared to harder synthetic finishes, but if you look after it it ages just fine. I add a touch of Sandarac to mine to harden it up a bit, but that's all.

    I've always avoided wax on instruments - once on you might never get something "waxy" off there and nothing will stick to it of course - I also always assumed that it might deaden the sound on a soundboard, but then given that Gibson and Martin both offer beeswax "sustainable" finishes which appear to sound just fine, it makes you wonder.

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  22. #41
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Spirit Varnish for a mandolin?

    The "1704" recipe has several versions and AFAIK it is not favored among violin makers. Mostly due to common problems with drying and all the trouble during making with filtering and decanting and heating etc. mostly to remove all the inpurities AND wax from the raw shellac. Residual wax causes lots of problems with adhesion or drying or too soft layer prone to heavy imprinting. I believe the original recipes calls for raw forms button lac or seedlac because that was most common spirit varnish material in 19th century when the recipe was created (NO WAY it dates back to 1704).
    The newer versions use clean shellac flakes instead or raw shellac which makes it much more predictable and reliable but still make and test it before use on instrument.
    There are many other reliable recipes on internet and even simple mix of shellac and sandarac with bit of mastic makes good varnish.
    Make sure your recipe is a bit harder than varnish that violin makers would use as mandolin bridges would stick or imprint and be hard or impossible to adjust (you don''t need to adjust intonation on violin ).
    Adrian

  23. #42
    Registered User j. condino's Avatar
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    Default Re: Spirit Varnish for a mandolin?

    I been using a cooked 1704 formula for years. The polymerization caused by heating it is the key. Either form of shellac works fine; just make sure to decant all the junk out from the bottom of the jar before using.

    I'd much rather have a great application of a simple formula than mediocre from a holey grail mixture.

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  25. #43
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    Default Re: Spirit Varnish for a mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by j. condino View Post
    Turn your computer off an don't overthink it.
    Excellent advice for me, James! I'll do my best to act on it.

    Also, thank you for clarifying that polymerization is happening during the 1704 cooking (regardless of shellac form used) and to decant what settles out.

    Turning off the computer...

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