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Thread: Two Point Mandolin

  1. #1
    Registered User talladam's Avatar
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    Default Two Point Mandolin

    Hi All,

    I'm getting ready to build my first mandolin. I finished my first guitar a few months ago, and I'm getting things ready to build a mandolin. I have most of the parts purchased; a nice set of Red Spruce and Bigleaf Maple back and sides.

    I'm going to have questions and I intend to post pictures during the process, but I thought I'd get started by posting the two point shape I'm thinking of using. I don't want to start with an F-style as my first mandolin, and I've always loved two points.

    It is basically a Loar shape with the scroll removed and a point grafted on. Let me know what you think. Constructive criticism is welcome.

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: Two Point Mandolin

    I like it. Many people suggest an A style for a first mandolin but this isn't that much more complicated.

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  5. #3
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    Default Re: Two Point Mandolin

    I love the two pointer shapes. I really like what you have done. Especially the more subtle ones like you have drawn. Very classic, very understated. Very handsome. Very formal.


    My all time favorites are when the points are symmetrical. But that is something else. Maybe your second mandolin.


    https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/a...hmentid=114937

    https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/a...chmentid=79165
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    Default Re: Two Point Mandolin

    That is almost identical to the shape of the one I am building at the moment. I took my Stewmac A5 plans and added two points.
    Mike

  8. #5
    Registered User John Soper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two Point Mandolin

    I love the looks of asymmetrical 2-point mandolins. Your outline checks the boxes. Have a fun build and report back when you are finished (or at any other point in the build).

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  10. #6

    Default Re: Two Point Mandolin

    That's almost exactly the shape I've used. It's going to have a violin edge and I'm using an inside form for the first time. I'm a big fan of 2 point mandolins.
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    Rob

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  12. #7
    Registered User talladam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two Point Mandolin

    Thank you very much for the positive feedback. It's interesting to see people comment that they use a very similar shape. I actually was thinking of doing something like the Kay Florentine mandolins, which I love the looks of, but I want to build something that will give me experience with the traditional construction methods. The Kay shape would have required a neck joint that is a bit different from a Loar style. Someday though...how cool would it be to have a Kay styled mandolin that was well built and with Loar style specs as far as body depth/arching etc?

  13. #8
    Registered User talladam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two Point Mandolin

    Update: The mould for this instrument is done. After my previous post I was ready to get going with the mould. First though, my wife and I are thinking of selling the house so I was moving the bandsaw around and made the mistake of tugging on the table. The trunnnions (which I think were already weakened) just fell apart and the table came loose in my hands. Frustrated, I looked online and found that while trunnions are readily available for some models, my Steel City bandsaw was an exception. I actually found a blog where someone made maple trunnions after not managing to find replacements. I was getting ready to do this, and wasn't looking forward to cutting hard maple curves with a coping saw when I got a reply from a company called Normand who did have my trunnions. All in with shipping it cost me something like $85 CAD, which is insane, but when they came they fit perfectly and I'm back in business! I also took the opportunity with the table off to replace all the lower bearings with sealed bearings. 3 or four of the 7 had seized. After a bit of careful set up, the bandsaw is better than ever!

    I decided to make a template from 1/4" MDF and use that create the final contour. This is because I have a sanding drum for my drill press, but it takes a lot of time to remove much material. 1/4" MDF is soft and I can shape it quickly, which I figured would create a smoother result. On my previous guitar build, my mould was a bit shaky and I feel like doing a better job this time is key. I decided to glue two half inch pieces of plywood together to make a 1" thick mould. I very carefully cut out my template in the MDF and used the drum sander to come down to the line. I got busy for a few days and left the template lying around. The area near the neck joint was bothering me because it looked like it was asymmetrical. I can see that this could make fitting the neck more difficult. I'm not sure if the Loar drawings I was using were asymmetrical (since there are a few 'quirks' with old Gibson instruments) or if I had just got the outline screwed up. At this point I compared my template to the drawing and realized that it was 1/4" too small all the way around!. Apparently I wasn't careful enough when I photocopied the drawing!

    This was super frustrating since I had used this photocopy to make my own custom outline. Now I had to start from scratch including redrawing my outline. This time I traced the original drawing by taping it to a window with sunlight streaming through. It actually didn't take as long as I feared it would; most of what took the time originally was making decisions about the curves and I could just mostly copy this in a slightly bigger form. I also traced one side of the neck joint area, flipped it and traced it on the other side to make darn sure that it was symmetrical this time. As is usually the case, it ended up better the second time.

    The mould itself went smoothly. I carefully cut out the shape on the bandsaw, leaving a little material on the waist side. Then I screwed the template onto the template and used a router to trim everything flush. It all came out smooth and at a perfect 90 degrees. It needed some careful handwork at the points where they were too tight for the router bearing. I got a bit fancy with the outline of the form trying to make some flats where I thought I would want to place clamps. We'll see if this ends up making sense. I can always cut it differently later. The shape and design of the spreaders I pretty much stole from Sunburst's mandocello build thread.
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  15. #9
    Registered User talladam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two Point Mandolin

    From scraps of plywood leftover from the mould I made a thickness gauge! I've had the dial indicator for years. I got a bit ambitious and added a lever to open the gauge. The lever is made from a part from Home Depot: I think it's for keeping hinged lids open; I'll have to go check. I used a barrel nut in the bottom part so that I could thread a 1/4-20 screw through. I put an acorn nut on the end of the 1/4" screw so it acts as an adjustable stop for the 'probe' part.

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  16. #10
    Registered User talladam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two Point Mandolin

    Any time spent in the last month or so on this project was spent on 'getting ready'. When I built my guitar I had to stop at almost every step to build a jig or purchase a part. It was the right way for me to do it at the time but this time I wanted fewer interruptions. My wife also asked for a Christmas 'wishlist' so I may have splurged on a few tools!

    The biggest project was an improvement to my bending iron. For my guitar I had a piece of 2 1/2" rigid aluminum electrical conduit with a torch. I found it very frustrating to keep the pipe at a constant temperature. I really struggled bending the sides so when I bent the maple binding strips I bought a charcoal BBQ lighter and squished it into the pipe. I used a turkey-fryer thermometer to monitor the temperature and this setup was definitely an improvement. I am a project manager at a controls and automation company and it occurred to me that I really didn't have a good excuse for not trying to improve my setup. Looking at some posts online, I purchase an Inkbird X001D7Q73J Temperature controller, which comes with a solid state relay, heat sink, and thermocouple. I built a plywood box and cut in the controller and a receptacle. I figure that one day I can use the controller to operate a heat blanket bender if I want. I added a smaller piece of conduit to the main piece to handle the smaller bends on a mandolin and used heat proof rope from a fireplace repair kit to keep the pipe insulated from the plywood. I had it 99% finished until I tried to thread the thermocouple into the aluminum pipe. It turns out I got the thread size wrong and before I realized it I had sheared all the threads off the sensor (they are very delicate it turns out). I've since purchased a new thermocouple, but I still need to install it. I haven't actually turned the thing on yet, so cross your fingers!

    As far as new tools, my generous wife decided that rather than pick one or two items off my list she would get me almost everything on it (wonderful girl)! I ended up with two Grammercy holdfasts, a 1/8" Narex Richter chisel, a 1" #7 Pfeil gouge (this was for my birthday actually), a Japanese spear point marking knife, and a Knew Concepts fret saw! Seems a bit crazy when I list it all off. I glued a bit of leather to the pad of each holdfast and roughed the shafts up with some sandpaper. They work amazingly and will really help with the versatility of my bench. The fretsaw was a complete luxury thing. I know a much cheaper saw would do the job, but I've always thought these are amazing! I need to get some blades now. I also did a huge sharpening session and reground and sharpened almost all the blades in my collection. I have been working towards having a 'system' for sharpening rather than a disorganized collection of blades sharpened at different angles and with different methods. I also tried the micro film sandpaper from Lee Valley for the finishing step and I got sharper than ever before! I'm not sure it's worth the extra effort though most of the time.

    I cut out some arching templates from my plans from thick cardstock. If I decide I like them the way they are I will someday make them from something more durable. I still need some kind of carving cradle, but I am running out of steam with the 'preparation' and am getting anxious to start the build. I think whatever tools and jigs I need from now on will need to wait until partway through the build.

    Apologies for the picture orientation, I'm still trying to figure that out.

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  18. #11

    Default Re: Two Point Mandolin

    Thanks for sharing your progress!

    I'm about to start a Saga kit and am thinking about making a thickness gauge. Yours is brilliant. I'd appreciate knowing what that Home Depot part was called (that allows you to open the gauge.) How have you fixed it so that you're sure it always returns to the same position?

  19. #12
    Registered User talladam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two Point Mandolin

    Hi Jeff,

    Unfortunately I threw out the packaging and I don't remember what it was called! I think it's something to keep a hinged item from opening too far. I'll attach a closeup pic of the part so you can see how it is attached. The gauge just springs back into position. I did have to loosen the screw a bit to make it loose enough to drop back into place. I used a little loctite (red) to keep the little screw from falling out. It works well in testing, but I haven't really used it much yet, so there may be a design flaw that becomes more apparent later.

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  20. #13
    Registered User talladam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two Point Mandolin

    I actually have made some progress that went unreported in the last post. I laminated a couple pieces of 1" mahogany left over from the neck blank of my acoustic build. I don't have them handy, but I think they ended up at 1 7/8" thick. It's really nice mahogany actually. I cut out my block shapes on the bandsaw. The neck and tail blocks had horizontal grain, but the points were cut out with the grain vertical, according to my plans. I'm guessing that this was in keeping with the way violin points are cut, which I believe is to make it easier to cut with chisels and gouges. Since I used a bandsaw and sanding drum I'm thinking it doesn't matter but it's nice to follow the plans when possible. I did have a little issue when cutting out the points because I was cutting them from a fairly small block and using a push stick to keep my fingers away from the blade. The piece fell over and took a little cut on the end grain face. Next time I would probably superglue it to a bigger piece to make cutting easier. I didn't stress too much about the perfect fit of the points but getting the end block to perfectly match the form and at a perfect 90 degrees was actually quite a challenge. I'm happy with the results, but it took a long time. The sanding drum is slow and a rasp makes it very hard to get a straight plumb surface.

    Since purchasing my back plates (some nice Bigleaf Maple from Bow River Tonewoods) I've been thinking about the thickness. They were actually oversize plates for an electric bass I think. They came at 1" thick and way overlength. I was trying to decide if it was worth it to resaw them to make the carving easier (and also to possibly give myself more chances to get nice sides bent). Only problem is I've not resawed anything over about 3" thick (these are about 5-6"). I purchased a new 1/2" 3TPI blade and spent some time setting up my bandsaw. I temporarily glued a little piece of MDF to my crappy low bandsaw fence. I haven't had much trouble with drift yet with this bandsaw so I gave it a try on a scrap piece of maple I had lying around. The cut went well and may provide a piece to practice thicknessing and bending in a bit. It is flatsawn though, so it might actually be difficult to bend. I sucked it up and cut my plates. It went super smooth and I now have my main pieces at a uniform 25/32" thick and some thin cutoffs at a little under 1/4". If the bending of my existing sides goes well, I may even keep the thin pieces for the top of a electric build! Lets face it though, I'll probably need the extra pieces for sides.

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    Default Re: Two Point Mandolin

    A few more pics:

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  22. #15
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    Default Re: Two Point Mandolin

    It's alive!! I replaced the thermocouple on my bender, stuffed the charcoal starter up the bottom, added some feet to clamp it down, and plugged it in..... and it was completely dead! All I really had time to do was check that the controller was receiving power and that everything seemed to be wired correctly and then I had to put it aside for a week. This morning I flipped the hot and neutral wires, plugged it in, and it came to life! There is no labeling that I could find for which termination was supposed to be which, or maybe I just missed that somewhere. I ran it up to 170 degrees C and it seemed to be able to hold steady without a problem. I also checked the heat of the pipe itself and it seems to be close to 170 degrees, but maybe a bit higher near where the charcoal starter is touching. It remains to be seen whether it will work well for actual bending, but I'm encouraged.
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    I haven't made much more progress. Here is a picture of what has been taking up my time:
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    We had to move her from one stable to another and get her settled in. She always reminds me of a little kid (the horse that is!)

    Next I think I'll try to thickness the sides with a handplane (the mandolin sides of course).
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  23. #16
    Registered User talladam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two Point Mandolin

    Aha! I bet you thought I had lost interest and you'd never see another update! I actually temporarily stopped being a mandolin builder and became a flooring installer. I ripped all the flooring out of the upper floor of my house and put down laminate. This included chipping up a whole bunch of K3 particle-board that was glued and stapled to my subfloor. If I have the perseverance for that there's no way I won't finish this mandolin. I'm a bit shocked by how long it took me actually, but contractors are super busy here right now and are charging whatever they feel like so I ended up doing it myself.

    I had already bent the sides before I started the floor. My new bender contraption is amazing. It was weird though, I did some practice bends on unfigured woods and found a temperature that wouldn't scorch and bent nicely. When I moved on to bend my real sides I scorched quickly. I guess the two types of maple react differently. It was no issue to decrease the temperature, and let me tell you, having the pipe kept at a constant temperature drastically improved my bending experience. After reading a tip on a violin building forum I used a bending strap made from a belt sander belt. It's very strong and the abrasive 'grips' the wood. I also tried thin metal and didn't like it as much. I would like to say that things went flawlessly, but I did crack one side, and as a result I needed to use the extra pieces that I cut off the wood for my back. I ended up with one perfectly bent piece from the original sides and one perfectly bent piece from my 'back maple' and they didn't really match. As tempting as it was to just go with it I sucked it up and bent another piece from my 'back maple' and this went smoothly.

    These pieces sat idle for most of the summer while I worked on the floor and went camping and hiking on the weekend. Finally last weekend I cleared off my bench and got going again. I cut the sides to length using a method I'd seen on a guitar forum where you put a shim in between the halves of your mould and cut both pieces at once with your bandsaw. In theory this made sense to me but I don't think I'd do it again. When I glued the tail block on and put the rims in my mold, the tail block is a tiny bit spaced out from the mold. I think the sides could have been cut a bit longer. I don't think this is the end of the world, but it's annoying.

    Finally, I am going to attach a picture of my neck block. I based the size of it off the F style drawings I have. It is about 1 3/4" long (measuring from where the neck will attach towards the tail block). I recently saw a picture of an A style mandolin and it made me wonder if my neck block is a bit small? It's not too late for me to glue a piece on to make it bigger if it is necessary to support the fretboard extension. What do you think?

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    Default Re: Two Point Mandolin

    I enjoy your updates.

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    Default Re: Two Point Mandolin

    I've made several inside forms for both A and F style mandolins.. they work great for me.. but I have done away with using the inside spanners after my first couple of builds.. .. instead, I just use C clamps while the wood is still moist.. once dry, the wood moves very little and you have more control with the pressure.. Click image for larger version. 

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  26. #19
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    Default Re: Two Point Mandolin

    Progress Update:

    I continued by doing the final shaping of the blocks to fit the rims. Note to self: don't spend much time fitting the blocks before the rims are bent and in the mould. The sides fit the mould quite closely but the blocks were way out of whack once I got going. I recently purchased one of the little Rigid spindle/belt sander combos. I had to return one of them because the table was really warped. The second seemed spot-on and I thought shaping the blocks was going to be easy but it turned out to be a bit difficult. The blocks are so small that there isn't much to reference against the table and it was difficult to get a perfectly square point that was shaped correctly. Next time I think I'll leave the points attached to larger pieces of wood and cut them off at the end. That will solve the problem I had bandsawing the little things out as well. This way the longer piece of wood will reference against the surface of the sander's table. I'm always amazed by the things I think will take 10 minutes that take an hour! I thought the first one was perfectly fit but after it was glued there was a tiny spot where the glue joint was open. I fussed over the second one a lot more and it was perfect.

    I then moved on to kerfing. I happened to have some Basswood laying around from the 'practice neck' I made during my guitar build. I got it in my head to make my own kerfing. I know there are various versions of kerfing but for this first one I wanted to keep as close to the classic 'triangular' version as I could. I found it was actually a bit of a task to make perfect little triangular strips of just the right size. After trolling around the web I landed on a fairly simple design for a little block to clamp to the bandsaw table. This actually worked quite well. I set up a stop for the homemade miter guide I use with my bandsaw. This was supposed to make the kerfs easy, but I found that the tolerance for leaving the little web on the kerfing was quite fine. I either made the cuts too shallow or cut my strip in two. In the end it just took a bit of feel and concentration; yet another 'easy' job that wasn't super easy. Next time I'll just buy them from Stewmac.

    I pulled out my collection of clothes-pegs and started gluing the kerfing on. At first I used a combination of wooden ones and plastic ones and once everything dried I found that the 'pointy' end wasn't perfectly tight in some spots. I did a lot better with the other side but I think next time I need to get some little spring clamps or something. The clothes-pins worked great for my guitar, but I'm thinking the rubber bands on them lost some of their strength.
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    Default Re: Two Point Mandolin

    A few more pics:

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  28. #21
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    Default Re: Two Point Mandolin

    A bit more progress that didn't fit in the last post:

    After gluing the kerfing I thought about cutting the points off for the point protectors but realized I needed a flat surface to reference to the table of my sander so I flattened the back only. I started with some sandpaper glued to the back of one of my radius dishes. I found that despite being very careful with the pressure and direction the areas further away from the center of the 'garland' (especially the tips of the points) ended up lower than the parts to the inside. I tried this in the mould, with and without spreaders, out of the mould, and with a different flat surface. It has to do with the mechanics of sanding things I think. In the end I made a paddle by sticking some sandpaper to the end of my level and concentrating on certain areas. A quick rub on the big flat surface evened everything out afterwards.

    You can do the point protectors after the binding is attached and this is how the Loars were done, but I decided to simplify my life and glue them on now. In laying out how much of the point to cut off and replace with a protector I tried to make sure the amount of point protector showing against the side would match the thickness of the binding, which will be a hair over 3/16". I carefully sanded the excess wood with my oscillating sander and was happy to see that this ended up nice and plumb to the sides. I was expecting to have to adjust this with a blockplane or sanding block, but the sander made a nice easily controlled 90 degree flat spot. I carefully glued on little pieces of ebony. My binding will be tortoise celluloid and I think the ebony will look nice, but maybe it would be better to get some thick tortoise. We'll see. I roughed out the points with my gouge and wished I had an in-cannel gouge. The spindle sander finished things off nicely. I still have a tiny bit of refining to do, but I think it's probably best to do that when I true up the sides. I flattened the ebony to the flat plane of the back and totally flattened the front plane.

    I'm happy with the result and now I have to get on with something I've been a bit concerned with: jointing the top and back. I had a hard time with the back joint on my guitar and I expect the curly maple will be a bit of a pain. Last time I expected it to take a few minutes, at least this time I won't be surprised if it takes a bit of effort.

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    Eastman MD-315

  29. #22
    Registered User talladam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two Point Mandolin

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    Eastman MD-315

  30. #23
    Registered User talladam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two Point Mandolin

    An update to keep things going.

    I just recently finished moving from Calgary Alberta to Campbell River on Vancouver Island. This involved getting the house presentable for people to come see it. Surprisingly, our real estate agent suggested I keep my bench and most of my tools out! I guess it made the house a bit different from the other cookie cutter houses. The house sold within a couple of days and we spent the next month in a frenzy of packing. This is when I'm really glad I don't have a table saw or jointer. It was enough fun just getting the bandsaw into the moving truck! Our stuff just barely fit inside our new place and now I have a whole (small) room for my hobby! I though I might have to store some of the tools, but I actually got the bench, bandsaw, drill press and spindle sander into the small room. Now I just need to get all my little tools and parts organized.

    Before leaving I had gotten the top and back joined and flattened. I used a shooting board and my #5 plane on its side sharpened as well as I can manage. In the past I've put my shooting board along the right side of my bench but this time I mounted it across the front. This way I could control where I put pressure during my cut. I focused pressure on the middle of the cut to the point of creating a slightly concave edge and then finished with a few full length passes. Compared to joining my guitar plates this went much smoother and I had a suction tight joint within 10 minutes or less. Unfortunately the blade was a bit skewed in my plane and was taking more off one side or the other. When glued up the plate was a bit 'tent' shaped. It was no problem to flatten this afterwards since I had so much extra thickness, but it would have been a problem if my plates had been thinner. I cut the shapes out with an extra 1/8" and routed a rebate around the edge so that it is 1/4 inch thick. It will eventually end up at 3/16" but I thought I might need the leeway. I decided to carve the back plate first because I knew it would go slower so there was less chance of going too far too fast. I started roughing in the back with the gouge. This is about when everything got packed up for the move.

    Finally having settled I had to get out the back and try to remember what I was doing. I drew some of the topographic lines on the plate and took a bunch of measurements. For the last couple of days I've been sneaking up on the outside profile of the back. I have mostly been using the templates I made from my plans to check the arches at different spots across the back and the 'long arch' lenthwise. I've occationally used my thickness gauge and a pencil gauge I quickly cooked up. I got to where I got nervous about a too-deep cut with the gouge and broke out my finger plane. I tried the regular blade and that worked fine but I had to be very concious of direction not to tear out badly. I put a toothed blade in and boy did that make things easy. It just seems to smooth out all the lumps and will plow through the wood from any direction without tearing out.

    I still have a ways to go but I'm getting to where I need to be careful and sneak up on the final shape. I'm thinking I may drill depth holes in the top. I spent a lot of time making sure I wasn't carving too far while I was roughing things out and with the depth holes drilled I might be able to relax and carve more without having to check a million times.

    Carving the back has been more enjoyable than I expected. I kept stropping my gouge and sharpened the plane blades up and the maple didn't fight back too much. It is bigleaf so to be fair it is fairly soft. The spruce is going to be way different and much quicker, but I will have to be careful not too overshoot things.
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    Eastman MD-315

  31. #24
    Registered User talladam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two Point Mandolin

    I built a carving cradle similar to one I saw in Sunburst's thread:
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    Router jig for routing the rebate:
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    Eastman MD-315

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  33. #25
    Registered User talladam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two Point Mandolin

    Here is where I am now, taking a step back to assess my thicknesses:

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    Eastman MD-315

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