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Thread: What is this mandolin?

  1. #1

    Question What is this mandolin?

    Hi all,

    Can anyone tell me what this instrument is? It belonged to a friend's Grandad. Apparently he used to be a member of the Leeds Mandolin and Guitar Club in Leeds, UK.

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    Any ideas?

    Thanks,

    R.
    Last edited by robinbowes; Dec-03-2020 at 8:34am. Reason: Added more images

  2. #2
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    Default Re: What is this mandolin?

    Someone must have been on something when they put that together.

  3. #3

    Default Re: What is this mandolin?

    It is an European made instrument- either Italian or from central Europe- Saxony or Bohemia and it has been electrified with a system that is akin to the sort Regal and others used in the late 1930s for guitars- but I doubt it is from a guitar but it may be but could be home made. The metal on the top is clearly some kind of handyman effort. I have tuners that are very similar- possibly the same on a mandolin made in Saxony circa 1920 although it may predate WWI. J E Dallas of London made and sold mandolins that look similar in some ways to this one but I think it is probably European in origin. Here is a Regal made electric guitar- circa 1941.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/283516722546

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  5. #4
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is this mandolin?

    The headstock looks like ones sold by Dallas, probably similar to one below. I am sure there is rampant reptile dentistry evident here with the added electronics.

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    Jim

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    Default Re: What is this mandolin?

    Some would call it “customised” but it’s often known in the UK as “shed-work”.

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    Default Re: What is this mandolin?

    It’s....”interesting”!
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  10. #7
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    Default Re: What is this mandolin?

    Whoa, it's not a Shmergel Devastator but it's damn close. I'll give the best description to Ray(T) on this one only because I've heard the others before.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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  11. #8

    Default Re: What is this mandolin?

    Here's a mandolin made by Frederick Langham of Battersea, London. You can see that the J E Dallas mandolin that Jim Garber posted and this one below have very different tailpieces. The tailpiece on the mandolin in question is also German made which along with the tuners make me think central Europe or Italy and although those parts could be purchased by an English maker I am drawn to Europe on this one.

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  13. #9

    Default Re: What is this mandolin?

    I am now going to change my tune! I think the mandolin may be one made by Clifford Essex of London. The tuners may be German and it is possible the tailpiece is German but it may well be the hinged sort made in the USA as used by various makers. I still think the tuners are German. I have posted this mandolin before- it is still for sale! This one has US made tuners and tailpiece. There is no reason why Clifford Essex should not use German tuners but the tailpiece looks to have a flat section that may be above the hinge. I would reckon it was made in the 1920s and was lashed up during the late 1930s at the earliest. If the player was in a dance band he might have wanted to go electric and modified the instrument! It is probably not the same model as this one below but I think it is from the same family.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203104291...AaAjrCEALw_wcB

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  15. #10
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is this mandolin?

    I would go for the Clifford Essex attribution more for the inlays on the fretboard as well as that sort of fleur-de-lis inlay on the back neck button. Hardware, especially tailpieces and tuners, can easily be changed as well as can be originally sourced by multiple builders whereas headstock shapes and inlays more likely could be original to the instrument since those are more labor-intensive to replace. It is also possible that this was built outside of the UK for all three retailers: Essex, Dallas, and Langham.
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  16. #11

    Default Re: What is this mandolin?

    Jim, I agree Clifford Essex did import instruments and also made them in London, while it is possible that certain parts were made in Germany and imported. My luthier told me that quite a highly regarded British archtop guitar maker in the 1930s had the carved parts, and possibly whole bodies made in Germany. His father-in-law was a friend of Clifford Essex's star luthier who made their top instruments, Marco Roccio, a London Italian.

    https://gypsyjazzuk.wordpress.com/gy.../marco-roccia/

  17. #12

    Default Re: What is this mandolin?

    Thanks for all the discussion. I've bought it, so will hopefully have some better pics soon. I'll take off the armour plate and see what joys lay below. Frankly, I'll be happy if I can make it vaguely playable and if it makes a reasonable noise.

    R.

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    Default Re: What is this mandolin?

    Please don’t take some of our comments as criticism. A palimpsest such as this is certainly unusual, if not unique, and, had it come my way, I would certainly have been tempted.

    I suppose you have to look at it from the point of view at the time it was modified. In the late 1940s/50s, the mandolin boom was over, there were lots of unwanted ones around and electric instruments were the latest “must have”.

    Do let us know how you get on.

  19. #14

    Default Re: What is this mandolin?

    Hi Ray,

    I've not taken any of the responses as criticism. Most have been really helpful.

    I shall report back when I have the instrument.

    Thanks,

    R.

  20. #15

    Default Re: What is this mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by robinbowes View Post
    Hi Ray,

    I've not taken any of the responses as criticism. Most have been really helpful.

    I shall report back when I have the instrument.

    Thanks,

    R.
    An interesting find. Further to the Leeds connection I remember an instrument maker/repairer called Arthur Hunt, who had a small shop on North Street at least until the mid 1970s. I wonder if his hands have been upon it. I believe he had been a French Polisher to trade, and worked on the fitting out of the Queens Hotel in City Square, as well as buildings on the Headrow. The resulting offcuts of exotic woods - wheelbarrow loads, apparently-kept him well supplied for fingerboards and inlays.
    There was also a man in Armley, Cyril Proctor, who made electrified instruments in the 1960s. Below is his advert from a 1975 BMG magazine.

    CYRIL PROCTOR, Electro-Musical Instrument Specialist, 180 Town Street, Leeds
    LS12 3RF . Special pickups for E.H.G.
    pedal, etc. Adjustable poles. Six to twelv~ strings. Also for bass guitar, electric and
    acoustic guitars, violins, banjo, etc. S.A.E. for new prices.
    Last edited by mdowlin; Dec-04-2020 at 6:05am. Reason: date should read 1975

  21. #16
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    Default Re: What is this mandolin?

    I go along with the London-made, probably by Clifford Essex, attribution. As Jim G says, the MoP inlays are typical of CE mandolins, probably a 'silver medal' or 'gold medal' model before being subjected to the dark arts of the electrifier, which probably was either a home-made effort or transformed in the mines of Cawdor.
    If this was done in Leeds, I doubt anyone is going to own up to it unless the descendants of Hunt or Proctor have something to confess.
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  22. #17
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is this mandolin?

    This reminds me of that American experimenter Les Paul who played with lots of electronics. None of his early creations were gracefully designed but they sounded the way he liked. Maybe this mandolin’s electronics were similar.
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  24. #18

    Default Re: What is this mandolin?

    I sent a photo to my luthier and he responded:

    I have recollections of that style of electrics, there were one or two players that dabbled in electrics which were regarded by many at that time as akin to venturing into the “DARK” arts. Many were really naff efforts that “ sort of” worked. The one thing they had in common was they all looked like very “ Heath Robinson” creations.

    It would be intriguing to know if the mandolin works as an electric but I would not put much money on it!

  25. #19

    Default Re: What is this mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by NickR View Post
    If the player was in a dance band he might have wanted to go electric and modified the instrument!
    I can respect that. Seems like a perfectly logical and practical reason for such modifications.

    The goal being fitness for purpose for a particular usage - loud enough to be heard without feedback when playing in a large dance hall.

    If the band was any good, the audience would've likely been dancing, not ogling the band's instruments for compliance with some preconceived idea of visual 'art'.

    Personally - within reason - I think it's great when someone can take a discarded or unused thing and turn it into something useful that serves a valued practical real-life purpose, even if some of the details turn out to be a bit odd looking. (But obviously not a good plan for high-end rare stuff, that would be wrong IMO, and I'm also *not* a fan of useless crass display-only things such as flowers planted in old repurposed toilets in people's front yards next to the highway like some people in my region have done in years past, seriously.) But otherwise, if it works, and if it's sturdy and doesn't fall apart or have other functionality issues, then it's all good.

    As to the instrument in question, I like it, I think it looks kinda cool. At the very least, it's a conversation starter, unlike so many other mandolins that merely seem like rubber-stamped replicas of one or two 'normal' designs.

    Oh and incidentally, I think I recognize that black knob, it reminds me of the speed knob I saw once in the early 1960s on a homemade controller box for an old (it was old even then) electric model train set. My guess is that the train-controller knob probably came from a hobbyist radio/electronics supply store of some sort, maybe the same type of store that the mandolin knob came from, if the time period was similar.

  26. #20

    Default Re: What is this mandolin?

    I have increased the magnification on the photo that shows the tuners and there appear to be two plugged screw holes present at the lower end of the tuner plates. This means that those German tuners are replacements which makes me think that this mandolin originally had those "worm under the gear" style Waverly tuners made in the USA like the Clifford Essex mandolin in the eBay link I posted. The bridge that you can see may well be the original Clifford Essex item as although not the same as the one on the eBay mandolin seems to be of a similar style.

  27. #21

    Default Re: What is this mandolin?

    I had a conversation with my luthier and he said that it was most likely that the Clifford Essex mandolins were made in Germany or possibly just a few miles away, across the border in Czechoslovakia but shipped to London for final completion to avoid import duties through the use of loopholes in the law. This makes sense as these two centres- Markneukirchen and Schonbach had the excellent wood available and the skilled craftsmen and would be very competitive on price- not least with the exchange rate making imports into the UK so much less expensive than manufacturing in the UK. That would explain why they looked "German" and had American hardware on them.

  28. #22
    Registered User slimt's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is this mandolin?

    Looks like a cassette player .

  29. #23
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    Default Re: What is this mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by slimt View Post
    Looks like a cassette player .
    Where can I get one? I'll throw in a Grisman tape, and impress the crowd.
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  30. #24
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    Default Re: What is this mandolin?

    This discussion gives me some conflicted thoughts: on the one hand, if one owns an instrument that's been so severely altered, and one really wants a "real" mandolin, it makes sense to remove the after-market Frankensteinian additions, and see if a playable instrument emerges from the rubble.

    On the other hand, this mandolin has been made totally unique, for better or worse, and displays its history, and that of the owner who electrified it, using "shade-tree mechanic" techniques and materials, to use in a band context. Contemporary mandolinists who have a choice of several well-developed amplification technologies, and practiced expertise in their installation, don't know what expedients players of several generations ago, had to try to get themselves heard.

    As it is, the mandolin is an artifact of a prior era, a time of transition from all-acoustic to electrically-amplified instruments. If I were to obtain an instrument like this, I'd leave it as is, and get a decent mandolin to play acoustically. I'd show the altered one almost as a museum exhibit, and try to play it if only to demonstrate how far we've come, since mandolinists resorted to procedures such as this mandolin displays.

    Les Paul's "log" guitar is referenced above; it's considered a historic instrument, in the Country Music Hall of Fame, not merely an eviscerated Epiphone arch-top. Not putting this mandolin on the same pedestal, but I love the inventiveness and the "outside the box" thinking and tinkering that went into its "improvement" to meet its player's needs.
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  32. #25
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is this mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    Les Paul's "log" guitar is referenced above; it's considered a historic instrument, in the Country Music Hall of Fame, not merely an eviscerated Epiphone arch-top. Not putting this mandolin on the same pedestal, but I love the inventiveness and the "outside the box" thinking and tinkering that went into its "improvement" to meet its player's needs.
    Evidently, Les debuted his guitar at a club in NYC and some folks in the audience commented that it didn't look like a guitar so he got that body from the Epiphone factory and cut it in half and made the two side for appearance. This might fall into the same category of fretted instrument history as Loar's ViViTone, early prototype Fender, Rickenbacker, Bigsby electrics, and Knutsen harp guitars. Not exactly refined aesthetics but pioneering in technology that eventually became refined to the mainstream with many changes. I guess we can also add the earliest of Orville's experiments of instruments backs and sides carved out of one piece.

    I love these oddball experiments and whereas some folks make fun of them (as I did with my comment above about "reptile dentistry") sometimes they were ahead of their time. Or at least in a parallel universe— sort of like Superman's Bizzarro world. I still would love to hear from the OP if the electronics on this mandolin actually work and if they sound like anything.
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