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Thread: Shading a spruce top

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    Default Shading a spruce top

    I have a guitar bodied Octave that I want to shade the top. I have put a 1lb cut shellac sealer on it (1 coat) and am wondering whether the shading dye should be applied (sprayed) using just alcohol, or shellac, or lacquer. I am using dyes and not pigments, and the final finish will be lacquer. This is my first attempt at this, and it is quite daunting. I hand stained the back and sides and after running out of scraps I finally dove into the instrument, and while it is acceptable I realize I still have much to learn.
    Bob Schmidt

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shading a spruce top

    Here's what works best for me.
    Spray some stain right over the sealer until the color suits you, then finish with clear lacquer. The stain will work best if it is mixed into shellac, sealer, or lacquer. Spraying stain simply dissolved in alcohol or water over a sealer does not work well for me. It has a strong tendency to be blotchy and uneven.
    Having the color over the sealer but beneath all of the finish means that it is protected from sanding and buffing and the color will remain even. The first coats of lacquer must be sanded lightly and carefully.

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    Default Re: Shading a spruce top

    Thanks sunburst. Is a light (1lb cut) of shellac best for mixing or should I go heavier?
    Bob Schmidt

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    Default Re: Shading a spruce top

    Quote Originally Posted by irishmando View Post
    ...Is a light (1lb cut) of shellac best for mixing or should I go heavier?
    I don't know. I usually don't measure when I mix shellac but instead mix it strong or heavy or whatever and then add alcohol to thin it for whatever I need. If I were to guess I'd say you'll be fine with a 1lb cut.

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    Default Re: Shading a spruce top

    I need adult supervision in my least favorite part of our work. I’m trying to figure out how to add some kind of oil protection to my clear blonde varnish without changing its transparency. I’m using Carpathian Spruce & Claro Walnut again in a small guitar to pair with my clear satin Carpathian/Claro F5. Is there a clear ready to add oil for this purpose. Will a few outer coats of oiled varnish help protect the finish without changing it’s transparency?
    "A sudden clash of thunder, the mind doors burst open, and lo, there sits old man Buddha-nature in all his homeliness."
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    Default Re: Shading a spruce top

    OK thanks again sunburst.
    Bob Schmidt

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    Default Re: Shading a spruce top

    Completely agree with John. One addition: when you mix the dye into the finish, it becomes a "toner" and will loose transparency. It's like electricity. It can be your friend or your enemy. Experiment a lot before diving into the deep end.

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    Default Re: Shading a spruce top

    I had success with mixing powdered dye with denatured alcohol and then preparing shellac with that mixture in a 1 lb cut. I used blonde shellac so it didn't affect the color much. Shellac is very forgiving so you can experiment until you find a cut that you're comfortable with.

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    Default Re: Shading a spruce top

    Practice, practice, practice.

    Every chance I get and every time there is a bit of leftover color in the gun, I practice spraying. My workbench, most of the molds and jigs, tools, the bricks outside the shop door...even the door in the shop are sunburst. If my wife would let me, I'd sunburst al of the kitchen cabinets....

    One huge thing when shading a spruce top- I always clear coat it first. That way, when I have to sand back the finish a few times when things don't go correct, I have a neutral starting point. If you add color direct to the raw spruce, you'll likely have some bleeding into the wood and will have to remove wood to eliminate it.
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    Default Re: Shading a spruce top

    Thanks everyone. J.Condino, your shop and house must be quite a colorful place. I will try a light mixture in shellac and use the air brush to have better control, but it looks like I have a direction to go. My shop may become more colorful too. I wonder how the dog would look in sunburst?
    Bob Schmidt

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    Default Re: Shading a spruce top

    Quote Originally Posted by j. condino View Post
    Practice, practice, practice.

    Every chance I get and every time there is a bit of leftover color in the gun, I practice spraying. My workbench, most of the molds and jigs, tools, the bricks outside the shop door...even the door in the shop are sunburst. If my wife would let me, I'd sunburst al of the kitchen cabinets....

    One huge thing when shading a spruce top- I always clear coat it first. That way, when I have to sand back the finish a few times when things don't go correct, I have a neutral starting point. If you add color direct to the raw spruce, you'll likely have some bleeding into the wood and will have to remove wood to eliminate it.
    So James what sort of gun do you use? I was thinking of using a gun with 1 lb shellac with powdered dye added to an alcohol solution. I like your idea of sealing it first so that it is easy to sand off if one makes a mistake.
    Nic Gellie

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    Default Re: Shading a spruce top

    I’m curious if this is what twenties Gibson team did as well? Reading Mr. Gilchrist tutorial on finishes he offers, it sounds like he might be staining the wood not surface coating the color. If so, I wonder how he does it?
    In watercolor painting on paper, a clear water barrier helps me manipulate color location and translucency. Sponge dabs pull out liquid or release it while the color floats on and in the wash. Usually in paintings the wash is darker to lighter color on a horizontal plane. I use larger wider soft brushes without defining edges along with sea sponges to control the transition. As long as there’s plenty of water mistakes can be corrected or at least improved. I add clear water more than pigment. Yes, not having a flat surface makes keeping the center dome top wet enough to not absorb color and not collect in the recurve more troublesome. Has anyone tried spraying 1lb cut blonde sealer to the center area with a gradual transition to the edges. A gradual mask to help control color transition from dark to light.
    Wooden floor staining is sometimes done mixing the stain and coating material to keep the color on the surface for more control especially when trying to match old to new but it results in a finish that the color can be easily scratched to bare wood below. Maybe our repair artist can tell us if they have to add color to shallow scratches in twenties Gibson instruments when in for repairs.
    "A sudden clash of thunder, the mind doors burst open, and lo, there sits old man Buddha-nature in all his homeliness."
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    Default Re: Shading a spruce top

    Before about 1925 Gibson used spirit varnish for instruments. The shellac-based finish imparted significant color, and between that and age, that is what we see today. It can often be matched with orange shellac, but sometimes adding a little dye is in order to get a good match when repairing finishes.
    Floors are usually stained with pigment-based stains whereas instruments are usually stained with dye-based stains. Apples and oranges, so to speak.

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  23. #14
    Henry Lawton hank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shading a spruce top

    Thank’s John. Harder use for sure on floor scratches but oil was introduced into those F5 builds along with dark edged bursts. My 1913 A4’s finish is night and day different from what they were doing ten years later on my 1923 F4.
    "A sudden clash of thunder, the mind doors burst open, and lo, there sits old man Buddha-nature in all his homeliness."
    CHAO-PIEN

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    Default Re: Shading a spruce top

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Gellie View Post
    So James what sort of gun do you use? I was thinking of using a gun with 1 lb shellac with powdered dye added to an alcohol solution. I like your idea of sealing it first so that it is easy to sand off if one makes a mistake.
    Iwata Eclipse, the bottom feed one, is my favorite spray gun (airbrush) for mandolins. 'Fantastic atomization....I just scored another brand new one off ebay a few weeks ago for $70 delivered!!!!
    www.condino.com

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