Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 26

Thread: How do you play these measures?

  1. #1
    Registered User Sue Rieter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    1,985

    Default How do you play these measures?

    This is measures 7 and 8 of Ondrej Sarak's Amazing Grace arrangement for mandola.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	AG 7-8.jpg 
Views:	199 
Size:	136.4 KB 
ID:	190541

    Questions I have that you probably already know the answers to:

    What is the meaning of the rest above the note?
    At the beginning of measure 8, how do you play the two D notes of unequal length one of which is shown as an open D?
    How do you play the 4 sets of notes that are tied together?

    Thanks for your patience and help!

  2. #2
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    North CA
    Posts
    5,020

    Default Re: How do you play these measures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sue Rieter View Post
    This is measures 7 and 8 of Ondrej Sarak's Amazing Grace arrangement for mandola.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	AG 7-8.jpg 
Views:	199 
Size:	136.4 KB 
ID:	190541

    Questions I have that you probably already know the answers to:

    What is the meaning of the rest above the note?
    The rest above the dotted half note is to complete the measure for the 2 quarter notes. Functionally it's 2 parts, the lower sustained note as melody and the other part as rhythmic accompaniment.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sue Rieter View Post
    At the beginning of measure 8, how do you play the two D notes of unequal length one of which is shown as an open D?
    How do you play the 4 sets of notes that are tied together?
    Well, that is where I somewhat disagree with how that arrangement is written.

    You have to hit the open D for the quarter notes, and that stops the open D ringing as a true sustained pitch. It's sort of a "fake" way of implying a sustained melody.

  3. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to DavidKOS For This Useful Post:


  4. #3
    working musician Jim Bevan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Limache, Chile
    Posts
    809

    Default Re: How do you play these measures?

    What David said.

    If it was written in one voice instead of two, it would look like this

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Screen Shot 2020-12-14 at 11.42.28 PM.png 
Views:	84 
Size:	180.7 KB 
ID:	190546

    which probably wouldn't convey the composer's intention as clearly as he'd prefer.
    mando scales
    technical exercises for rock blues & fusion mandolinists
    mp4 backing tracks & free downloadable pdfs


    jimbevan.com

  5. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Jim Bevan For This Useful Post:


  6. #4
    working musician Jim Bevan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Limache, Chile
    Posts
    809

    Default Re: How do you play these measures?

    It's a fairly routine convention in piano scores, implying that one should sustain the long note with the sustain pedal, so that the damper (the thing that sits on the string, stopping the sound) doesn't cut the note off when the key is lifted before the note is repeated.

    At any rate, the goal is to try to get that D to feel like it's ringing out for five beats (even though you have to pluck it two more times).
    mando scales
    technical exercises for rock blues & fusion mandolinists
    mp4 backing tracks & free downloadable pdfs


    jimbevan.com

  7. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Jim Bevan For This Useful Post:


  8. #5
    Registered User Sue Rieter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    1,985

    Default Re: How do you play these measures?

    Okay, that pretty much makes sense. Jim's illustration helps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bevan View Post
    It's a fairly routine convention in piano scores, implying that one should sustain the long note with the sustain pedal, so that the damper (the thing that sits on the string, stopping the sound) doesn't cut the note off when the key is lifted before the note is repeated.

    At any rate, the goal is to try to get that D to feel like it's ringing out for five beats (even though you have to pluck it two more times).
    Given your explanation, I see how this would work on a piano. On a mandola, though, this seems like a pretty difficult goal when you're plucking the same note again.

    I'm still wondering how you play the two D notes on the second and fourth strings at the same time, though.

  9. The following members say thank you to Sue Rieter for this post:


  10. #6

    Default Re: How do you play these measures?

    I'm still wondering how you play the two D notes on the second and fourth strings at the same time, though.
    There are two ways to play simultaneous notes on non adjacent strings. One is the hybrid method where you hit the lower note with the pick as you pluck the higher string with your middle or ring finger. The other is to lay your left hand finger over slightly, damping the string in the middle as you strum. They both work and each sounds slightly different.

  11. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to CarlM For This Useful Post:


  12. #7
    Registered User Sue Rieter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    1,985

    Default Re: How do you play these measures?

    Cool! I will try both!

  13. #8
    working musician Jim Bevan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Limache, Chile
    Posts
    809

    Default Re: How do you play these measures?

    You're not being asked to play a low D (on the C-string) and an open D at the same time — when you pluck the low D, your pick only hits one string, one note on that beat.

    Writing it like this seems clearer to me:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Screen Shot 2020-12-15 at 7.24.49 AM.png 
Views:	68 
Size:	162.3 KB 
ID:	190547
    mando scales
    technical exercises for rock blues & fusion mandolinists
    mp4 backing tracks & free downloadable pdfs


    jimbevan.com

  14. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Jim Bevan For This Useful Post:


  15. #9
    Registered User lowtone2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    lower alabama
    Posts
    893

    Default Re: How do you play these measures?

    I wonder if the intent is to play that duo style?

  16. The following members say thank you to lowtone2 for this post:


  17. #10
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    North CA
    Posts
    5,020

    Default Re: How do you play these measures?

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtone2 View Post
    I wonder if the intent is to play that duo style?
    Most likely, but I am not sure. I'd like to see the whole score.

  18. #11
    Registered User Sue Rieter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    1,985

    Default Re: How do you play these measures?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    Most likely, but I am not sure. I'd like to see the whole score.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	amazing grace sarek.jpg 
Views:	108 
Size:	404.1 KB 
ID:	190551

  19. The following members say thank you to Sue Rieter for this post:


  20. #12
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    North CA
    Posts
    5,020

    Default Re: How do you play these measures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sue Rieter View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	amazing grace sarek.jpg 
Views:	108 
Size:	404.1 KB 
ID:	190551
    Thanks.

    It seems to be self-accompanied, as in melody with waltz-like chordal rhythm part.

    I assume one could play the melody with tremolo and the chords as written, so it seems to be a type of duo style.

  21. #13
    Registered User Jairo Ramos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Colombia, Sudamérica
    Posts
    300

    Default Re: How do you play these measures?

    Ondrej is an active and regular member here on the forum. Maybe if you send him a pm he can answer all the questions.

  22. The following members say thank you to Jairo Ramos for this post:


  23. #14
    working musician Jim Bevan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Limache, Chile
    Posts
    809

    Default Re: How do you play these measures?

    Now that I've seen the discussed passage in context, ya, it makes sense for it to be written that way.
    mando scales
    technical exercises for rock blues & fusion mandolinists
    mp4 backing tracks & free downloadable pdfs


    jimbevan.com

  24. The following members say thank you to Jim Bevan for this post:


  25. #15
    Registered User Sue Rieter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    1,985

    Default Re: How do you play these measures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jairo Ramos Parra View Post
    Ondrej is an active and regular member here on the forum. Maybe if you send him a pm he can answer all the questions.
    I did so, and invited him to weigh in on the discussion.

  26. The following members say thank you to Sue Rieter for this post:


  27. #16
    Registered User Sue Rieter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    1,985

    Default Re: How do you play these measures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bevan View Post
    You're not being asked to play a low D (on the C-string) and an open D at the same time — when you pluck the low D, your pick only hits one string, one note on that beat.

    Writing it like this seems clearer to me:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Screen Shot 2020-12-15 at 7.24.49 AM.png 
Views:	68 
Size:	162.3 KB 
ID:	190547
    This looked pretty clear to me. Are you saying based on looking at the whole score that you would play it differently?

  28. #17
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    North CA
    Posts
    5,020

    Default Re: How do you play these measures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jairo Ramos Parra View Post
    Ondrej is an active and regular member here on the forum. Maybe if you send him a pm he can answer all the questions.
    Well of course I'm looking forward to learning what the arranger had in mind.

    And I do appreciate his work on this tune.

  29. #18

    Default Re: How do you play these measures?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    Well of course I'm looking forward to learning what the arranger had in mind.

    And I do appreciate his work on this tune.
    I don't know if this is the same version as in the sheet music (I don't have time to study it right now), but at 0:33 in this video is Ondrej playing Amazing Grace on a mandola. Fast-forward to 0:33...


    (or direct link)

  30. #19
    Registered User Sue Rieter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    1,985

    Default Re: How do you play these measures?

    I think this is a different version. He's got two.

  31. The following members say thank you to Sue Rieter for this post:


  32. #20
    working musician Jim Bevan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Limache, Chile
    Posts
    809

    Default Re: How do you play these measures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sue Rieter View Post
    This looked pretty clear to me. Are you saying based on looking at the whole score that you would play it differently?
    I'm saying that I would have written it like the arranger did. The way I wrote it does nothing to convey the distinction between the melody and the accompaniment. But ya, now that you mention it, I would play his version differently from mine, to bring out the melody, and I would do that by playing the first D more strongly than everything else, and I would attempt to create the illusion of the sustained melody note by playing the two subsequent same-octave D's at the volume the dying-away melody note is at.

    Huh?

    Darker equalling louder, I'd play it like this:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Screen Shot 2020-12-16 at 7.37.46 AM.png 
Views:	82 
Size:	177.6 KB 
ID:	190561
    mando scales
    technical exercises for rock blues & fusion mandolinists
    mp4 backing tracks & free downloadable pdfs


    jimbevan.com

  33. The following members say thank you to Jim Bevan for this post:


  34. #21
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Praha, Czech Republic
    Posts
    430

    Default Re: How do you play these measures?

    Thank you for inviting me to the discussion.

    DavidKOS and Jim Bevan described well how to play it. Thank you!

    I didn't think about Duo style, but it's probably possible.


    I could write the bars in at least three ways. But neither is completely 100% unambiguous.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Mandola.jpg 
Views:	93 
Size:	23.4 KB 
ID:	190566

    For the first version in bar 8, the empty string D may be unclear.
    The second version in bar 8 lacks the "sound" of an empty string D.
    The notation seems to be just the tone of D on the "C string" for the first time
    The original melody is not very legible in the third version.

    Every time I try to distinguish the melody and the accompaniment in the arrangements. That's why I chose the first option.

    Ondrej
    Last edited by ondrej; Dec-16-2020 at 6:22am.
    My books - books
    My videos -YouTube
    Duo UF UF - YouTube

  35. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to ondrej For This Useful Post:


  36. #22
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    North CA
    Posts
    5,020

    Default Re: How do you play these measures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sue Rieter View Post
    I think this is a different version. He's got two.
    Yes, the video has a somewhat different arrangement.

    Obviously it's not the old-fashioned tremolo the melody and pluck the accompaniment duo style.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ondrej View Post
    Thank you for inviting me to the discussion.

    DavidKOS and Jim Bevan described well how to play it. Thank you!

    I didn't think about Duo style, but it's probably possible.


    I could write the bars in at least three ways. But neither is completely 100% unambiguous.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Mandola.jpg 
Views:	93 
Size:	23.4 KB 
ID:	190566

    For the first version in bar 8, the empty string D may be unclear.
    The second version in bar 8 lacks the "sound" of an empty string D.
    The notation seems to be just the tone of D on the "C string" for the first time
    The original melody is not very legible in the third version.

    Every time I try to distinguish the melody and the accompaniment in the arrangements. That's why I chose the first option.

    Ondrej
    Thank you!

  37. #23
    Registered User Sue Rieter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    1,985

    Default Re: How do you play these measures?

    Beyond getting an idea on how to play parts of this tune, this has been an interesting conversation. I've been thinking about how the arranger (Ondrej) hears in his head what he wants, or maybe figures it out by playing his instrument, then writes it down. Jim and David look at it and maybe can hear in their head what is intended. This is either a talent or a skill or both. I'm not all that good at it, but expect that I will improve with practice. I have never thought about two different musical ideas being played at the same time by the same instrument, because this was not part of the clarinet band music I played back in the day. Stringed instruments can do that, and it takes a different kind of thinking. Maybe akin to the "division of attention" we practiced learning to fly airplanes.

  38. The following members say thank you to Sue Rieter for this post:


  39. #24
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    North CA
    Posts
    5,020

    Default Re: How do you play these measures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sue Rieter View Post
    Jim and David look at it and maybe can hear in their head what is intended. This is either a talent or a skill or both.
    Well, hearing the music in your head is another part of ear training, in this case score reading. I had classes in this in my undergrad years at college. It is a "talent", but mostly a learned skill.

    I was trained as a composer, back in the pre-Sibelius/Finale days of pencil, paper and eraser. We were taught to both hear the music written on a score, and to do the reverse, write down what we heard inside.

    I'm sure there are on-line classes in learning to hear staff notation as one reads it, as part of ear training and score reading.

  40. The following members say thank you to DavidKOS for this post:


  41. #25
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Praha, Czech Republic
    Posts
    430

    Default Re: How do you play these measures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sue Rieter View Post
    Beyond getting an idea on how to play parts of this tune, this has been an interesting conversation. I've been thinking about how the arranger (Ondrej) hears in his head what he wants, or maybe figures it out by playing his instrument, then writes it down. Jim and David look at it and maybe can hear in their head what is intended. This is either a talent or a skill or both. I'm not all that good at it, but expect that I will improve with practice. I have never thought about two different musical ideas being played at the same time by the same instrument, because this was not part of the clarinet band music I played back in the day. Stringed instruments can do that, and it takes a different kind of thinking. Maybe akin to the "division of attention" we practiced learning to fly airplanes.
    I hear the melody and the accompaniment in advance. I write in the music sheet (computer). And then I check, so that's going to play on a musical instrument.
    My books - books
    My videos -YouTube
    Duo UF UF - YouTube

  42. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ondrej For This Useful Post:


Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •