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Thread: Setup, Setup, Setup!

  1. #1
    Registered User Mike Buesseler's Avatar
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    Default Setup, Setup, Setup!

    Early last year I acquired two mandolins, a Collings MT, brand new from TME, and a lightly used black topped MTO from a Cafe member. Both have 1 3/16” nuts. They are dimensionally identical, but sonically quite different. I thought it would be cool to play one for awhile until I felt like a change, then play the other one with no ergonomic adjustments necessary. So, I did that for over a. year. I tended to love the sound of either mandolin, except when I switched from the MTO (oval hole) to the MT (f-hole), the “feel” was like night and day. The MT felt marvelous in my hands, although I could never say quite why. I grew frustrated with the MTO, and seriously considered selling it and finding something I liked better, which wasn’t going to be easy since I live in NW Montana, a long way from any decent music store.

    This story is probably longer than it needs to be, but I’m trying to describe how this issue crept up on me like it did. I made the assumption that Collings mandolins are pretty much perfect and that mine were identical—at least visually. Anyway, before I started the tedious and disheartening (I really wanted to love both these instruments) process of selling, I decided to take a more detailed look at them. I got out my machinist’s rule and started measuring everything having to do with my hands. Same, same, same...until I measured the string spacing—the space within the courses. Each pair of strings on the MTO were about 1mm wider apart than those in the MT. That doesn’t sound like much, but the actual spacing on the unwound strings was about 2mm on the MT and 3mm on the MTO. That’s a 33% difference! Eureka!

    But, now I had to decide how to fix this problem. I’ll cut this short and say that the clouds parted and the angels sang when I discovered that Bruce Weber had recently moved to within 40 miles of me! I emailed, then called Bruce, arranged a date (yesterday) and drove on down to his new shop/orchard/estate on Flathead Lake. What a delightful afternoon! Bruce went right to work. He measured the MT, then made a new nut with that string spacing, sanded down and notched the saddle, tweaked the trussrod, put on new strings, and handed it back to me.

    Today I feel like I have a new mandolin!!! It plays and sounds SO MUCH better! A delightful afternoon with Bruce (and his friend Todd who was wiring the temporary shop), cost me $50! Bruce wouldn’t even talk about accepting more.

    So, another lesson about how little details can matter in a mandolin and the importance of a good setup. Then finally, I feel the immense satisfaction of living this close to a guy with the skill, the experience, the confidence, and the warmth of Mr. Bruce Weber. Almost made me forget this #$&@*% pandemic for a few hours!!!

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  3. #2
    Registered User Randi Gormley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Setup, Setup, Setup!

    What a great story!
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  4. #3
    Registered User Eric Platt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Setup, Setup, Setup!

    That's very cool. Glad it was something that could be customized to your liking quickly.

    FWIW, most of mine have a 2mm width. 3mm seems wide. Although the Kalamazoo uses that spacing.
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  5. #4

    Default Re: Setup, Setup, Setup!

    This is so true !! To me set up is everyting. I've personally changed tone, volume, intonation, playability with proper set up (I am not a luthier). I've seen massive changes in all aspects so whilst people may expect an expensive instrument to be set up perfectly, it most certainly is not the case.

    Glad you are sorted.

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  7. #5
    Orrig Onion HonketyHank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Setup, Setup, Setup!

    Yes. I bought a Red Valley mandolin from a semi-pro musician who had used it extensively. I loved the tone, I loved the construction, and I hated the string spacing at the nut. The intra-course spacing was wide and the inter-c -- oops, um, between-course, spacing was narrow.

    Made a new nut with a more or less standard Weber string spacing and it was like an entirely new and different mandolin. The former owner would probably hate what I did. I loved the result.

    And yes also to Bruce Weber. As a luthier and as a good guy. Mary, too.
    New to mando? Click this link -->Newbies to join us at the Newbies Social Group.

    Just send an email to rob.meldrum@gmail.com with "mandolin setup" in the subject line and he will email you a copy of his ebook for free (free to all mandolincafe members).

    My website and blog: honketyhank.com

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  9. #6

    Default Re: Setup, Setup, Setup!

    Awesome! Welcome to the club! I recut nuts on several of my instruments to narrow the courses and give more space between them. It can take a frustrating instrument and turn it into a dream.

    Here are some pics, they are a great illustration of the issue (this is my Eastman MD605 before and after pics), it's not a huge change but the feel is night and day:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Davey Stuart tenor guitar (based on his 18" mandola design).
    Eastman MD-604SB with Grover 309 tuners.
    Eastwood 4 string electric mandostang, 2x Airline e-mandola (4-string) one strung as an e-OM.
    DSP's: Helix HX Stomp, various Zooms.
    Amps: THR-10, Sony XB-20.

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  11. #7
    Registered User Lucas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Setup, Setup, Setup!

    The MT-O and the MT have different nut widths. One is 1 1/8" and the other is 1 3/16". So is this technically really a setup problem?

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  13. #8
    Registered User Mike Buesseler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Setup, Setup, Setup!

    Yes. The MT comes with either a 1 1/8” nut or 1 3/16”. I ordered the latter, same as the MTO.

  14. #9

    Default Re: Setup, Setup, Setup!

    I’ve played guitar for decades but I’m relatively new to mandolin technicalities. The OP’s description here sounds more like a modification issue, to me, than it does a set-up issue. Can someone clarify?

  15. #10
    Registered User Mike Buesseler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Setup, Setup, Setup!

    It was a modification. I never meant to suggest anything else. But, I think this modification—including the several modifications Bruce made to my mandolin—all come under the heading of a setup. Setup, IMO, is a personal modification to an instrument to the players preference.

    Call it whatever you want. A setup is a modification. My post was meant to convey the importance of little details to a player.
    Last edited by Mike Buesseler; Dec-18-2020 at 10:37am.

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  17. #11
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    Default Re: Setup, Setup, Setup!

    I'm curious about the reason for the wider spacing on the MTO and the Eastman in kurth83's post. What is the benefit of having the two strings in a pair being further apart - especially 33% further apart? I know string spacing is a big deal on guitars, but the pairs on a mandolin (except for rare cases I've read about) are meant to be fretted as if they were one string. It would seem the goal is to have the pairs easy to fret cleanly, and that having them as close together as possible without them hitting each other while vibrating would be optimal. This would also result in the spacing between courses being wider given the real estate available within a given nut width.

    It seems the 2mm spacing is most common. Is a narrower spacing ever used? I remember reading about some mandolins having 1" nuts. Do these have narrower spacings between the strings in a course, or just less space between course?
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  18. #12

    Default Re: Setup, Setup, Setup!

    I have experienced the benefits of a good setup, but never new string spacing could make such a difference?

  19. #13
    Registered User Mike Buesseler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Setup, Setup, Setup!

    It took me over a year to figure this out! This is why I wrote the post! I was ready to sell this great mandolin because something didn’t feel right!. It wasn’t the sound (which is great), I lowered and raised the saddle (the action was actually lower than my MT!). I changed string gauge. I dressed the frets (I’ve done this successfully before on other instruments). Still, something felt different and more comfortable on the MT.

    In retrospect, I guess I should have considered string spacing. But these are nearly identical Collings mandolins. It never occurred to me that Collings would send out instruments with different spacing. The MTO was, in fact, used, so maybe someone else changed this spec...but, I doubt it.

    Bruce Weber was very matter-of-fact about the issue when I brought it to him. He just shrugged and went to work. He carefully traced the spacing on my MT, then started to make a new nut for the MTO.

  20. #14
    Registered User Billy Packard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Setup, Setup, Setup!

    You are so fortunate to live so close to B. Weber. You'll not have problems!!

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  21. #15

    Default Re: Setup, Setup, Setup!

    The greatest variance I have found is never much to do with the nut although I do agree that for fingering, the nut arrangement comes into play I find the bridge saddle is the key. If, for example, the two Es are very close to each other and the two As and Ds and Gs, then the sound can almost be like a guitar and definitely thinner. I prefer them to have about 2.5mm distance from one E to the next and so on. That way when the plectrum hits it there is a millisecond delay which fattens up the sound., No doubt about that. Same as the top of the saddle. If it it sits on a thin pinacle whereby the very top of the sadlle has the string sittin on a very narrowe top, then likelihood of tone being a bit thinner. I find this more so on cheaper instruments. On high end instruments with a really good bridge, I find it not to be the same issue.

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  23. #16

    Default Re: Setup, Setup, Setup!

    Why did I change string spacing?

    Eastman nuts are narrow, and the wide OEM courses made it hard to not mute adjacent strings when playing.

    I play a lot of music where multiple courses ring, and I just couldn't do it cleanly.

    It was very frustrating, and I thought it was my playing for a while. After the nut change it was easy. Amazing how much difference such a small change made. I now find I like narrower nuts with narrow courses. I tried a 1 1/4 nut and it was way too wide for me. If I had fatter fingertips I would likely switch to a wider nut too.

    In general I tend to believe an instrument should work for you rather than you being forced to work for the instrument. Put another way, poor intruments or setups can hold you back.

    How it feels is just as important as how it sounds.

    My list of mods allows all of my mandos to feel the same, and to feel really good. I describe which problem each mod solves so you know what to do if you have that problem:
    - a good setup, measured to 1000 inch string height with the wonderfully accurate guages from stewmac, I never got anywhere near that consistency with feeler and card-style guages.
    - taller frets for less fretting effort and ease to achieve no string buzz. (45 is minimum 50 is preferred)
    - nut with proper string spacing for ease of avoiding adjacent string muting.
    - high ratio tuners (Grover 309's) for ease of accurate tuning.

    It's a simple list, and makes any mando feel like a dream to me.

  24. #17

    Default Re: Setup, Setup, Setup!

    Sorry, more followup here.

    There are some tradeoffs to be aware of IMHO.

    - lower string heights can slightly reduce volume. You don't hear about this much in the mandolin world, but in the guitar (and especially electric bass) world it comes up. I really don't notice it much on mandolin.

    - taller frets on a mandolin are a win-win, raising the strings off the fretboard can increase volume and tone slightly (but not much AFAIK) and increase ease of playability. In the guitar world however taller frets can be a tradeoff. It is easier to press strings out of tune, especially with the super light strings common in the electric guitar world. I have never had a problem on mandolin, as the frets are so close together, and the double courses just won't press out of tune for me. Even on my 18" scale tenor I don't have that problem. But I have an electric guitar with 9's on it and jumbo frets and that thing is a struggle for me to play in tune.

    - narrower courses also have a slight loss in tone, I didn't care that much, as feel is very important to me, but it is worth being aware of. As noted above, the saddle course width has more effect on tone the nut course width. I leave the saddles alone, so the courses are wider there. So I get a more playable nut with minimal loss in tone. It is also possible for the strings to be too close together so they touch each other, especially on the bottom course. The space from the edges of the strings is what matters, not the center to center distance. So center to center distance will increase as the strings get thicker.
    Davey Stuart tenor guitar (based on his 18" mandola design).
    Eastman MD-604SB with Grover 309 tuners.
    Eastwood 4 string electric mandostang, 2x Airline e-mandola (4-string) one strung as an e-OM.
    DSP's: Helix HX Stomp, various Zooms.
    Amps: THR-10, Sony XB-20.

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