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Thread: What are these tuners?

  1. #1

    Default What are these tuners?

    From 1920s? And are there any replacements?Click image for larger version. 

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    There could be some advantages, but clearly didn’t catch on. Make of mandolin unknoown.

  2. #2
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: What are these tuners?

    Mandolin maker is Stromberg-Voisinet later to become Kay.

    Some history of the company here.

    Our friend Jake Wildwood has some discussion on one he restored here.

    Here's all he says about the tuners:
    The headstock shows-off these cool, individual, weirdly-recessed tuners. They work just fine but the vulcanized rubber inserts do not allow access to them and look a little bit like you really wanted souvenir-sized chocolate-glazed donuts.
    Here's another thread from 2014 about a S-V mandolin.
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    Default Re: What are these tuners?

    Those missing tuners seem to be unique to Stromberg-Voisenet. (S-V was active in the '20s, the predecessor of Kay-Kraft, the predecessor of Kay.) S-Vs show up in the Cafe classifieds every year or so.

    Those big holes held black plastic plugs (bakelite?) that supported the tuner shaft and covered the gear mechanism. I have an S-V that's, uhm, sort of waiting for me to get up the guts to pull the plugs, as they seem fairly brittle and likely to shatter. If I could find an "economical" source such as a machinist-hobbyist, I'd like to get a bunch of them machined from a bar of Delrin, a more modern self-lubricating plastic. (I suspect that a commercial machine shop would want to charge $10K for 10,000 of them, or just $9K for maybe three of them.) 'Till then ... ???
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  4. #4

    Default Re: What are these tuners?

    Ed, I’m something of a machinist hobbyist, and cylindrical things in Delrin are very easy. The mando I just saw online, had the tuner innards spread out after removal, and it looked as if not only the big bushings are bad but the gears underneath may have breakage too. Occurred to me as an interesting challenge, but the owner doesn’t want to ship, and it’s a day drive from here and back, so I’m probably not getting this thing. The mando itself looked salvageable.
    How many bushings is ‘many’?

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: What are these tuners?

    I am trying to figure out how those tuners look under those "doughnuts". They don't seem to be four on a strip unless that wooden back plate is removable. If that is the case, perhaps the best thing would be to fill the large holes and inset replacement tuners without the larger routing of the individual tuners. These are particularly super-valuable vintage mandolins so I would opt for workable tuners vs. climbing over backwards to use non-working originals in order to maintain originality. Or you even machine or mold plastic to replace the original "doughnuts".

    Can you post the photo(s) of the innards of the tuners? I am just curious how they work.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: What are these tuners?

    Jim, fortunately photo still up. Shows the post and spur gear as one piece, and a two-piece (?) shell that supports the worm end. Looks like one or more of these housings shattered. The button shaft has the worm attached, and there seem to be only seven. I guess the worm shaft is what keeps the whole thing from rotating when the button is turned, as the bores in the peghead show nothing. Note several of the doughnuts broken, which, if rubber, would be expected after a century. So, no removable back plate likely. (The auger center mark in the counterbores is proof that the holes never went through). Click image for larger version. 

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    Default Re: What are these tuners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    ... These are particularly super-valuable vintage mandolins ...
    Jim, I assume you meant to say "not particularly super-valuable"? Mine was ~ $400 eight or ten years ago. BUT, it's a lightly built & resonant canted-top flatback, generally akin to that era's Martin mandolin; much higher quality than the Kays that followed it, IMHO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard500 View Post
    ... So, no removable back plate likely.
    Correct, no backplate. The back of the S-V headstock (at least most of them) is rather ornate carving that would be a shame to sacrifice to the usual tuner plates.

    And THANKS for the photo of the internals. As noted, I haven't had the guts to go that far!
    Last edited by EdHanrahan; Dec-18-2020 at 5:25pm.
    - Ed

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    Default Re: What are these tuners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard500 View Post
    How many bushings is ‘many’?
    Good question! I've been thinking between a dozen and a hundred or so, as I suspect that many that are removed now will need replacing, and there must be another dozen folks out there in similar shape, even if they only need one or two currently.

    Part of my suspicion is that the headstock wood has shrunk over time (mine has some minor cracks in line w/ the plugs) AND has imprinted itself into the bakelite, making removal dangerous for both the plugs AND the headstock. Thus, my hesitance ...

    BTW, there are S-V guitars with generally similar headstocks, and there were also some (guessing) custom-ordered batches that have some but not all of these S-V traits.
    - Ed

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  9. #9

    Default Re: What are these tuners?

    Ed, while we’re still cogitating on this tiny subject, couple more observations: The doughnuts are described as vulcanized rubber, or rubber with fiber. Bakelite is pretty well eternal in comparison. Besides, something has to hold the thing in place, so anything incompressible would need adhesive, so lacking actual contact with one of these, I’m pretty sure it is rubber, held in by compression. Your suggestion of Delrin, while nice and low friction (this is also the necessary top bearing for the string post), it would need to be glued in place too, as it is hard and if oversize, would shatter the peghead. So, maybe the choice of material back then was pretty good!
    I have had custom Viton (rubber of sorts) parts made for ball valve seats: not an expensive proposition even a small number. You provide a prototype, they cast a mold, or you machine the mold, and specify durometer (hardness). Personally, I think almost anything would work, even some smooth wood. The expensive job concerns the mechanical innards which would be CNC machined and expensive in small quantities.
    Don’t know the musical instrument world very well, but I doubt that there would be a market for any of these things. But then I can’t understand the current elaborations on nut slots either.
    HOWEVER - if I get my paws on that mandolin, I won’t be able to resist trying to restore it, just for fun.

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: What are these tuners?

    Quote Originally Posted by EdHanrahan View Post
    Jim, I assume you meant to say "not particularly super-valuable"? Mine was ~ $400 eight or ten years ago. BUT, it's a lightly built & resonant canted-top flatback, generally akin to that era's Martin mandolin; much higher quality than the Kays that followed it, IMHO.
    Doh! I have to carefully re-read my typing. So sorry! Yes I meant to add "not" for sure.

    Buy are those complicated little things. BTW Jake called the substance that those donuts were made of as vulcanized rubber (see my quote from his site above) but I would guess they are the same vulcanized fibre that L&H pickguards and headstock overlays were made of. It is a 19th century plastic like bakelite, and not rubber at all. Vulcanize is just a process incorporating pressure and heat. You could probably use ebony or mold out of some sort of plastic.
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    Default Re: What are these tuners?

    If one of these ever dropped in my lap missing tuners or pieces I would be tempted to sell what was left of the tuners to some crazed human being looking to fix theirs and then I'd be real tempted to try and figure out how to stuff a more recent tuner in that hole with a new cover of sorts to make it look right and perform well. I think it could probably be done.
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    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: What are these tuners?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    ...I would be tempted to sell what was left of the tuners to some crazed human being looking to fix theirs...
    Years ago, I bought a Polk-A-Lay-Lee, four-foot-long "surfer uke" on eBay. (Anyone who wants to see this weird instrument, well, Google is your friend.) It has large paddle-shaped plastic friction pegs. "Polks" haven't been made since I guess the mid-1960's.

    Well, taking it out to a gig (yeah, you can play them in front of people), I set a National guitar on top of mine, and broke one of the pegs. Attempts to Super Glue it together so that it would take the tension of tightening a string, were futile. I started looking around for a local plastics shop that could mold me another one.

    I also went on eBay, and found another Polk-A-Lay-Lee being sold with mismatched pegs (three black, one red -- like my broken red peg). The seller said they'd taken that one off a "trashed instrument." I immediately e-mailed the seller to see if the trashed Polk had any other pegs remaining.

    Success! There were two more pegs, which I immediately arranged to purchase for $20 each -- an exorbitant price for 2¢ worth of red plastic, but try to find another one! One peg went back on the instrument, the other into a drawer as insurance against a future break.

    Long hijack, but the point being aimed for, is that there are probably a few similar Stromberg-Voisinets showing up from time to time as "projects" on eBay, some with salvageable tuners. Local instrument repairers usually have "junk drawers," into which potentially useful parts from unrepairable mandolins may be thrown. I've found useful stuff –– bowl-back bridges, banjo tailpieces, planetary pegs -- at local shops that do repair and restoration. Worth a bit of a search, IMHO.

    And I couldn't resist letting all you who've plowed through this hijack, get a taste of the Polk-A-Lay-Lee, here playing a Warren Zevon song. I'm not the player, though.

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    Default Re: What are these tuners?

    If you have actually pulled one of those out and played it in front of other people you have my ultimate respect.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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    Default Re: What are these tuners?

    Alan: A fine and noble hijack it was! Thanks!!

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    ... real tempted to ... stuff a more recent tuner in that hole with a new cover of sorts to make it look right and perform well.
    HA! I'd been thinking the same thing! But the good news, at least for me, is:

    My tuners work fairly well as they are. For the sake of not screwing stuff up, I had hoped to clean & lube them before any extensive playing but, as noted above, had trepidation about prying out (or vice-gripping out?) the rubber/plastic/mystery-stuff plugs, that might not survive the trauma. One of mine has a nice split in it already.

    Now, having had a few days to digest Richard's "case-full-of-parts" photo..... Yikes!! What IS all that stuff? Some looking good, some obviously broken, some not quite all there??? Getting a mental image of the intended inner workings probably needs some help from Mr. Spock. The broken rectangular-frame pieces (only 2 of them whole, maybe 2 or 4 in pieces) especially get my attention because there's no easy way of knowing if mine are equally broken, but might be held in place and functioning because nobody has yet disturbed them. Why should I go fix that which ain't broke?

    Further good news is that, tracing the mechanism from string attachment to the worm, the bearing surfaces seem to be held away from the headstock's wood. THAT leads me to the possibility of simply sending a drop or two of Tri-Flow down the tuner capstan, where it should hit the mechanicals before any seeps into the wood; an added grace is that Tri-Flow, I suspect, is less damaging to wood than mineral oil would be.

    So that's my plan for the intermediate future: lube externally while avoiding a re-build of the potentially-already-broken applecart.

    Gotta add that the "case-of-parts" photo is most intriguing. THANKS for adding that, Richard. My black plugs have just enough grunge to hide the white nylon (?) sleeves that are inset as capstan-bearing surfaces. I might not have caught that until actually cleaning them, and mine don't seem very grungy even now, with the white well hidden!

    Just some additional S-V comments, having dug it out for the first time in a while:
    - The S-V mandolin scale, as best I can tell, is 12 3/4". That's far shorter than the usual 13 7/8", and shorter yet than Martin's 13" even.
    - S-V mando pickguards, those not yet lost, are actually held on by two guitar bridge pins into the soundboard. Very strange, and very prone to looseness followed by lostness.

    That's it for now. Good Luck to all, and to all a Good Night!!
    - Ed

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    Our mistakes weren't quite so easy to undo
    But by all those roads, my friend, we've travelled down
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    Default Re: What are these tuners?

    Well, that $50 S-V was sold locally with all the hardware and nice case, so I don’t get to dither with those fun parts, which is ok, as antique and personally-modded snowblowers demand current attention. (For you collectors, they are: two 50’s Snowbirds, (deco sheetmetal masterpieces), one big Ariens with a ‘40s 8 hp B&S cast iron monster grafted on (impossibly heavy), another Ariens converted to 2hp electric - turns out to be a great solution; plus the ‘70s IH backhoe, which is flat out useless in snow.)).
    However, I’m still bidding online for oddities, and holding to bids less than dinner out. Sometime after Christmas, I’ve got a Baglama Saz or something similar, coming in from LA, which doubtless will provoke some brand new issues.

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    Default Re: What are these tuners?

    Random thought... Could any of these parts be 3D printed?
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    Default Re: What are these tuners?

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    Years ago, I bought a Polk-A-Lay-Lee, four-foot-long "surfer uke" on eBay. (Anyone who wants to see this weird instrument, well, Google is your friend.) It has large paddle-shaped plastic friction pegs. "Polks" haven't been made since I guess the mid-1960's.

    Well, taking it out to a gig (yeah, you can play them in front of people), I set a National guitar on top of mine, and broke one of the pegs. Attempts to Super Glue it together so that it would take the tension of tightening a string, were futile. I started looking around for a local plastics shop that could mold me another one.

    I also went on eBay, and found another Polk-A-Lay-Lee being sold with mismatched pegs (three black, one red -- like my broken red peg). The seller said they'd taken that one off a "trashed instrument." I immediately e-mailed the seller to see if the trashed Polk had any other pegs remaining.

    Success! There were two more pegs, which I immediately arranged to purchase for $20 each -- an exorbitant price for 2¢ worth of red plastic, but try to find another one! One peg went back on the instrument, the other into a drawer as insurance against a future break.

    Long hijack, but the point being aimed for, is that there are probably a few similar Stromberg-Voisinets showing up from time to time as "projects" on eBay, some with salvageable tuners. Local instrument repairers usually have "junk drawers," into which potentially useful parts from unrepairable mandolins may be thrown. I've found useful stuff –– bowl-back bridges, banjo tailpieces, planetary pegs -- at local shops that do repair and restoration. Worth a bit of a search, IMHO.

    And I couldn't resist letting all you who've plowed through this hijack, get a taste of the Polk-A-Lay-Lee, here playing a Warren Zevon song. I'm not the player, though.

    Hey Allen,
    I have a ‘Singing Treholipee’ which is a very similar instrument to your Polk A Lay Lee, and I believe made by the same company. It has one broken tuner, just like your did. Any chance you want to sell that spare one you have now? OK to say no, but hope it’s ok to ask!

    Thanks,
    Pete

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    If you have actually pulled one of those out and played it in front of other people you have my ultimate respect.
    Many times at kids' shows. They love it.

    It's actually a really poor instrument, musically. Small plywood sound-box, square-shaped neck, totally out of balance when played (I mean, the neck's more than three feet long), and terminally imprecise tuners -- which you don't dare put a lot of strain on when tuning, since they're styrene plastic. It's all in the image.

    Fun fact: the idea with "surfer ukes," which were originated by a CA company called Swagerty, and then copied by the Polk Bros. Midwest department stores, who sold the Polk-A-Lay-Lee for like $17.99 -- the concept was to take them to the beach, serenade the Annette Funicelli in their bikinis, then stick the point of the neck down into the sand when you hit the curls. The instrument would stay out of the water, and be there when you washed back ashore.

    And a message to Mando Mafia Pete, with whom I've exchanged PM's: that idea of a 3D computer printer is absolutely brilliant! If you can find someone who can do it, you can get a replacement peg without all the tsores I went through!
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    Default Re: What are these tuners?

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    Many times at kids' shows. They love it.

    It's actually a really poor instrument, musically. Small plywood sound-box, square-shaped neck, totally out of balance when played (I mean, the neck's more than three feet long), and terminally imprecise tuners -- which you don't dare put a lot of strain on when tuning, since they're styrene plastic. It's all in the image.

    Fun fact: the idea with "surfer ukes," which were originated by a CA company called Swagerty, and then copied by the Polk Bros. Midwest department stores, who sold the Polk-A-Lay-Lee for like $17.99 -- the concept was to take them to the beach, serenade the Annette Funicelli in their bikinis, then stick the point of the neck down into the sand when you hit the curls. The instrument would stay out of the water, and be there when you washed back ashore.

    And a message to Mando Mafia Pete, with whom I've exchanged PM's: that idea of a 3D computer printer is absolutely brilliant! If you can find someone who can do it, you can get a replacement peg without all the tsores I went through!
    I thought of 3D printing after seeing some ‘old’ banjo parts at a banjo dealer’s stand at Clifftop one year... he told me that he has them 3D printed! They looked exactly like the real thing.

    My ‘Singing Treholipee’ is a good conversation starter, and a fun wall hanger. As Allen said, they aren’t all that great musical instruments, but I can certainly get a tune out of mine, and, hey, I found it for only $25 in an antique store!

    Pete

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: What are these tuners?

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    Years ago, I bought a Polk-A-Lay-Lee, four-foot-long "surfer uke" on eBay. <snip>
    From my foggy memory: the design team at Polk worked on this feverishly to come up with ultimate design so that when you take this to play at the beach and want to jump into the lake or ocean you can stick it headstock first into the sand while you swim. Also the design is intended to ward off any potential thieves.
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    Default Re: What are these tuners?

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    Many times at kids' shows. They love it.

    It's actually a really poor instrument, musically. Small plywood sound-box, square-shaped neck, totally out of balance when played (I mean, the neck's more than three feet long), and terminally imprecise tuners -- which you don't dare put a lot of strain on when tuning, since they're styrene plastic. It's all in the image.

    Fun fact: the idea with "surfer ukes," which were originated by a CA company called Swagerty, and then copied by the Polk Bros. Midwest department stores, who sold the Polk-A-Lay-Lee for like $17.99 -- the concept was to take them to the beach, serenade the Annette Funicelli in their bikinis, then stick the point of the neck down into the sand when you hit the curls. The instrument would stay out of the water, and be there when you washed back ashore.

    And a message to Mando Mafia Pete, with whom I've exchanged PM's: that idea of a 3D computer printer is absolutely brilliant! If you can find someone who can do it, you can get a replacement peg without all the tsores I went through!
    I finally tracked down an outfit that can make 3D printed tuners for my Singing Treholipee:

    https://www.shapeways.com/product/L2...ption=20968117

    My replacement tuner just came in the mail, and it works like a charm! Including shipping, it was just shy of $40.

    Pete

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    Default Re: What are these tuners?

    Consider having the holes filled in solid, and a nice veneer face on there, then have a set of 'normal' mandolin tuners fitted...(?)
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