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Thread: Need assistance with a Sigma mandolin PART 1

  1. #1

    Default Need assistance with a Sigma mandolin PART 1

    Hi Everyone!
    Ive just discovered this site and I’m already blown away by the breadth & depth of knowledge of members, so I am hoping you can help me out.
    (Before I go any further, let me apologize in advance for the length of this post!! It’s a long one...you’ve been forewarned...so read on if you dare!! &#128513
    I recently purchased 2 Mandolins in an online auction...and I know NOTHING about Mandolins. 😊
    (Wait!!! Don’t leave ALREADY!!! HAHAHA)
    Here’s a bit of background that may help provide some context for questions I’ll be asking later! 😉 (and Yup...there’s a few!)
    My mom & dad love Bluegrass & have gone to festivals all their lives. But.....my mom just recently passed away and I think it’s going to be really hard for my dad to go alone, although I know he still wants to. It has always been such a big part of their lives and now that there’s a big emptiness I’m glad that he has something he enjoys so much and gives him something to look forward to.
    Hence the reason why I think that ‘out-of-the-Blue’ a month ago he asked me if I still had my guitars and said, “I think I want to learn how to play.”
    😳Hunh??
    He had dabbled with the banjo but as I pointed out to him (as kindly as I could!), “Dad, your hands are the size of massive bear claws!! Your fingers are almost as wide as the frets on a guitar!! I don’t want to discourage you...but... I honestly don’t think you are even going to be able to press a string without your finger touching the strings above and below it. They’re just...too big!”
    A couple weeks later I happened upon an online auction for a very well-known music store in the area whose owner was retiring. It was a complete dispersal of the store and some of the owner’s private collection of instruments, so I thought I’d check it out.
    I saw the 2 mandolins, (which I’ve always loved the sound of and always thought I might like to try & learn to play), so I started doing a bit of research. I learned that, just like a guitar, it was possible to play some very simple chords with just one or two fingers, so I thought ‘perhaps’ a Mandolin would be a better option for him seeing as there are only 4 (8) strings instead of 6- and it would be okay if his big ole’ finger pressed the string below because it was supposed to!
    So I ‘casually’ mentioned the idea & told him about the auction....and got a “hmm” noncommittal response.
    So, I sent him the video showing the three simple chords and how many songs he could play with just those 3 chords!
    I told him that I had always thought about maybe learning how to play as well, and ‘hinted’ how he should bid on one of the mandolins and I would bid on the other and we could learn together!👍 (just so I could gauge his reaction and see if he WAS interested).
    Again, not much response...(but I wasn’t sure if it was because he wasn’t interested in the Mandolin itself, or if it was the thought of having me around more often that influenced THAT lack of response..🤣🤣🤣hahaha)
    ...but anyways...the auction was closing in a few hours and both of the Mandolins still had fairly low bids, so I kept trying to find out as much as I could about them.
    The one was a Sigma/Martin, a brand which I am relatively familiar with as I have a 12 string. I read as fast as I could, and looked at as many pictures as I could find to see if I could determine the model, as I figured I probably couldn’t go ‘too’ wrong with a Sigma, especially for a beginner to learn on. (The other Mandolin I was bidding on had no strings/tuning keys, but from the research I was able to do within those few brief hours I decided it ‘might’ (?) be a worthwhile purchase as well, so I decided to bid on both of them. I ended up getting both- for what I thought were decent enough prices ($250CAN for the Sigma and $100CAN for the other one) and only realized when I got the invoice that there was ALSO a 15% Buyer’s Premium added on, which was then taxed 13% sales tax, and then the bid itself was taxed the 13% sales tax....so...uhhhhh...yeahhhh...it ended up being a ‘weeeee’ bit more than I had expected...($325CAN for the Sigma and $130CAN for the other one..but ...oh well...🤷#♀️...what are you going to do?!)
    (***BTW... I will post the pictures and inquiries I have about the other Mandolin in a separate post. I look forward to hearing the feedback about that one as well, as I discovered it is a bowl back that was made by a recognized Italian Mandolin maker in (I think) the mid 1800’s!) Very cool! 😊
    But first I have to deal with the Sigma since it may (or...may not) be my dad’s Christmas present. 😊

    So...this is what little I can tell you about it..(please forgive if I use incorrect terminology to identify parts... it’s a steep learning curve over a couple of days for someone whose never even SEEN a Mandolin up close before!&#128513

    1. According to what I’ve read here on the Mandolin Cafe site, I understand that Martin originally made their own mandolins, and then decided to have Sigma produce them for them from 1970 to about 2007. Mandolins made during that time usually indicated somewhere on the instrument that they were ‘Made by Sigma for Martin’.
    The majority of that time they were built in Japan, (70-83), then moved production moved to Korea (84-94), then onto Taiwan and Indonesia until 2007.
    The most desirable models are the original ones made by Martin themselves.
    I’m a little confused by conflicting opinions about quality because I thought I read somewhere that the models built in Japan tended to be better quality than the ones produced in Korea, Taiwan & Indonesia, but then I also read that the models made in Korea were the best quality? Anyone?
    After 2007 Sigma went into production for themselves and from that point forward only the Sigma name appeared on them, correct? Or did the Sigma name appear by itself on any of the models they made for Martin?
    Are any of the ‘Sigma’ only models noted for being fairly decent entry models? (And if so, pleeease tell me THIS is one of them!😂&#128521

    The Mandolin I have has the Sigma name and symbol on the headstock in Mother-of-Pearl inlay (I don’t believe they are stickers of any sort. )

    2. However, I cannot find ANY labels, markings, or evidence of previous labels, so I don’t know what model it is, or consequently, what year it was manufactured. Isn’t it pretty strange for it to be completely void of any kind of identification??? Has anyone ever encountered this before? ‘Could’ it mean that someone disassembled it and rebuilt it??? Is that even possible to do??
    Would I be accurate in guessing that because the Sigma name alone is on it, that it was ‘probably’ built sometime after 2007 when they parted with Martin. And, if that is the case, it means it was likely built in Indonesia, and thus is not very good quality? (I hope I’m wrong!! &#128533
    3. I’m also going to ‘guess’ it’s an ‘A’ type model (just because it looks like other ‘A’s! Lol) Is there a number that would accompany the ‘A’ (or whatever letter it is) as well?
    4. It has ‘f- holes’ (which I read are often the type used for Bluegrass...so I managed to get THAT right! 😁 yay! Lol)
    5. The fret markers are plain metal.
    6. There is a Fleur-de-Lis type design on the tuning key mounts
    7. I ‘think’ it is Sunburst on the back (?) although it doesn’t look as vivid to me as most of the Sunbursts I saw.
    8. It has a solid-coloured front- which I didn’t see in any pictures I looked at.
    9. I don’t think it is ‘carved’ but rather pieced/laminated together 😕 (I tried to get a picture down inside the f-holes to shown the inner edges.
    10. I don’t know what kind(s) of wood it is made of.
    11. I don’t know if there’s been any work done on the nut, the frets or the bridge, or if any of those parts need work.
    12. I tried to get pictures from the top & bottom looking at the distance from the strings to the frets, but I don’t really know what I should be looking for here. (I remember reading something about how to determine the ‘action’ but I’ll have to revisit it).
    13. I know nothing about the tailpiece - except that it’s there! 😊
    14. There’s no evidence of delaminating/coming apart along the neck.
    15. The back has a slight rounding to it (which ‘seems’ to be the design- I don’t ‘think’ it’s warped or bowed.)
    16. The front seems to be raised a little higher under the strings, with shallow dips above and below the strings near the f-holes. (I couldn’t capture the subtle waves with the camera. But I’m hoping that is the intentional structure of it and that it isn’t a result of some kind of damage!!).... BECAUSE....

    PART 1/2 (Had to split this into 2 posts! )

  2. #2

    Default Need assistance with a Sigma mandolin PART2

    The day after I brought it home, I took it out to look at it....and......😞... I discovered DAMAGE between the neck and the body, AND a CRACK on the neck itself. 😩😩😩
    I don’t know enough to tell if an attempt has been made to fix it or not.
    If it HAS been repaired, I don’t know enough to determine if the integrity of the instrument itself was compromised.
    And since I haven’t been able to determine what Model it is, I haven’t been able to try and find others to compare it to in order to determine what the value of it is.
    I don’t know if it CAN even be repaired, but IF it can, I would like to know roughly what kind of cost I would be looking at.
    And then, IF it IS worth fixing, I have to factor in what I have already paid for it, and decide whether or not I should keep it- if it’s a decent one -good for someone just learning - OR if I should bail and get my money back from the Auctioneer & try to find another one. (The Auctioneer offered to do a full refund (which surprised me- I was ready to fight him on it!&#128513 but he realized it was a huge error/oversight on their part that they hadn’t caught the damage while taking pictures). I think other bidders might not have seen it at the preview either because a musician who had been bidding on a number of the instruments commented to me that he thought I did pretty good getting them for what I did...and he had looked at them in person at the preview, so I guess he missed it too! )

    And so...even after I gather all this information and get some answers, and make these decisions......there’s always the chance that my dad might STILL open it on Christmas morning and tell me......he wants to learn to play the GUITAR!!!
    🤪 LOL🤣🤣
    (But I just don’t want to have to start looking for another one at this point in time so he might be getting this one to have something to unwrap!!&#128521

    So!!!!!! That’s it!!!
    ...all of you experienced Mandolin players out there....I’d appreciate any answers or information you can provide me with, including your opinions as to whether it’s worth keeping or not! (Keeping in mind that we are not talking about the kind of playing that most of YOU do! 😁It’s a starter Mandolin for a beginner, so he can hack around...and have something to do when he’s missing my mom at Bluegrass festivals...😪😪

    If he DOES keep this one, I’d like to know what I could expect to get for it if he wanted to upgrade a year or so down the road-because if I invest money to fix it up, I would want to know if I could recoup some of what I had invested!
    If you are of the opinion that I should just get my money back now & look around for another one, then any Make & Model recommendations (in a similar price range or a bit higher) would be INCREDIBLY APPRECIATED, as would a heads-up from anyone looking to sell one that would fit my needs (& remember to keep in mind that he has MONSTER paws, so the bigger the better!&#128513

    Last night I found the article/post/interview about Vintage Mandolins under $1000 and I thoroughly enjoyed it! Can’t believe how much I’ve learned from this site in just a few short days! I just wish I had found it BEFORE the auction so I could have been a little better prepared!! Oh well- the important thing is that I’ve found it now! 😉 (and...now....I think I have to start looking for a Mandolin for myself as well! &#128513

    Just out of curiosity, once we figure out which model this is, if anyone has a rough idea of what they originally sold for I’d like to know!

    I’m hoping to be able to attach all the pictures in one place, but if it doesn’t let me, I will put them in a few posts. *I’ve just realized that I can’t add any pics in this forum, so I will post them under SIGMA MANDOLIN in the Forum where I can put pics. The cracks and damage will be at the end.

    Sorry again for the length of this post!
    Watch for the next ‘novel’ about the other Italian Mandolin. 🤣🤣🤣
    ... just kidding...I promise you it won’t be ANYWHERE near as long as this one!&#128513
    Looking forward to everyone’s input! Thanks for your help!
    Patti

  3. #3
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need assistance with a Sigma mandolin PART 1

    The site owner posted the instructions for posting an image I replied to one of your other postings with a link to that reply. You're going to need pictures before anyone can give you any real information. To my knowledge there was a period of time when Martin was importing instrument parts from Japan and assembling them or setting them up and calling them made in the USA instruments. That was stopped. Again, to my knowledge every Sigma instruments was imported. They really are not highly sought after mandolins.

    Martin built mandolins from about 1900 well into the 70's, they just didn't make many in the later years. The Sigma and Martin mandolins have little in common other than they have 8 strings.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Need assistance with a Sigma mandolin PART 1

    If there is any damage I would send it back and not try to repair it. You can get a better mandolin for the money. Give your dad a gift certificate for a mandolin for Christmas. Maybe he would like to help pick it out.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

  5. #5
    Teacher, repair person
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    Default Re: Need assistance with a Sigma mandolin PART 1

    If they will take a return on the Sigma, I suggest you go ahead and return it.
    If you were to have it repaired, the cost of the repair coupled with the cost of the mandolin could easily exceed the value of the repaired instrument.

    Sigma mandolins were nothing special, and are nowhere near the quality of Martin mandolins made in the US.

    You might look at Eastman mandolins. Their model 505 is a much better grade instrument than the Sigma, and they can be found used for $500 US. It would be a good enough instrument to keep your father busy for years.
    If that's out of your budget, I like the gift certificate idea.

  6. #6
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need assistance with a Sigma mandolin PART 1

    FWIW you paid general retail price for a Sigma mandolin that should have been in perfect condition. If you can return it, as others have advised, do so, but I believe most auction houses may not allow that and that you are buying as-is. You may not have any recourse unless they described as being in perfect condition.

    OTOH what its the Italian mandolin you bought? I am assuming it is a bowlback but if it is a decent one in playable shape it might be worth either setting it up properly or, at worst, selling it. There are some folks who are interested in bowlbacks especially if they are well made. Post here with any additonal info.

    BTW no need to put photos in one place or even to post multiple places. Most people here can find you. You can put photos here.
    Jim

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  7. #7

    Default Re: Need assistance with a Sigma mandolin PART 1

    Hi Mike! Thanks for the link. I had watched that a couple of times before you sent it to me, but I couldn't figure out why I couldn't do it. Finally realized that for some strange reason, you cannot use your iphone or ipad! So...I copied all the pictures, put them in emails to myself on my phone, then opened them on my computer. Or- rather, I tried to. Only 1 email came through, I couldn't get them to send. So....today, I went in and copy every picture and sent every one individually to myself from email on my phone, then opened them up on my laptop, resaved them all, then went to the forum, and uploaded each one. And.....so finally I have posted everything!! (I had another post about an Italian Mandolin I bought as well, so there's 13 pictures of that one posted in the Video/Picture forum as well. ) Hopefully now that people will be able to have a look I'll get some feedback!

  8. #8

    Default Re: Need assistance with a Sigma mandolin PART 1

    Thanks for your input! The more I look at it, the more I realize that I think the damage is more significant than I originally thought. If you are from Ontario (or if anyone else reading this is!) can you recommend any good stores that specialize in used Mandolins? Thanks! Patti

  9. #9

    Default Re: Need assistance with a Sigma mandolin PART 1

    Hi! Thanks for your feedback. I kind of knew that Sigma's were okay, because I am familiar with Martin. The reason I even started bidding on it, was that it was only at $120 right up until the last few minutes of the auction. I figured for that price it would be fine as a beginner model for my dad. But, as I said, when it was all said and done, with the additional buyer's premium and taxes, it ended up being about $325. As you said, I know repairs can run into a lot of money, so I wanted to know if it would be worth putting the money into the repair. I will definitely have a look around for an Eastman. I think that is a really reasonable price.Is that one that is typically used by Bluegrass players? I doubt if he will be doing any kind of picking (not with those fat fingers! LOL) so just a nice strumming instrument. Are there any makes of Mandolins that tend to be a little larger in size overall? How about the neck and frets? Any that might be better suited to his hands than another? Thanks! Patti

  10. #10

    Default Re: Need assistance with a Sigma mandolin PART 1

    Hi Jim! Thanks for your comments. The problem I was running into was that I was trying to post the photos from my phone into the forum (also opened on my phone) and apparently, I discovered that when you are using an iphone, there is no tool bar like the one above. So, I thought that perhaps you could only upload photos into the Pictures/videos forum, because it wasn't giving me the option to do it where it was posting. Now that I'm doing it on my laptop, the toolbars are appearing, and I realize I can put the pictures with the post! Thanks for the heads-up though! I finally did manage to get the pictures posted in the Video/Pictures Forum of the damage and of the Italian Mandolin as well, but glad I know for the future that it can be done right here. (I thought it was kind of strange that it wasn't giving me the option, but I never dreamed it would be because I was working on the iphone! That's something that maybe should be posted in a few places so new people realize they can't use ipads or iphones to post (although...I still don't understand why it wouldn't work to be honest! Hopefully now that the pictures are all there I will get some feedback about both the Mandolins! Right from the moment I saw the damage my gut instinct was to take it back- Don't need to open THAT can of worms! lol, but because I couldn't identify what model it was, I didn't know if it might be worth investing in. I knew Sigmas weren't the greatest quality, but thought I better check on the value just to be sure! Do you have any other suggestions for other nice, rich-sounding Mandolins that Bluegrass players tend to like? Thanks! Patti

  11. #11

    Default Re: Need assistance with a Sigma mandolin PART 1

    Oh yah- btw- I was worried about returning it too- because I buy stuff at all kinds of auctions, and I know their "As is, where is" policy that let's them get away with way more than they should be allowed. I have had numerous conversations with different Auction houses about 'how the game is played'-( and I know- because I used to work for Ritchie Bros!) Especially with the expansion of online auctions, they have become very good at....shall we call it...."Errors of Omission" (I call it something very different- and they certainly don't like that!) ....and when they are challenged about such "Errors of Omission" they conveniently reinforce it with their back-up line: "Everything is sold as is, where is". I was fully expecting to get exactly that reaction the day after the auction when I called them....but I think they knew that they had messed up....so they offered me a full refund. (I am a pretty good customer too, so that probably helped, but I wasn't going to take no for an answer!) LOL

  12. #12
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need assistance with a Sigma mandolin PART 1

    He had dabbled with the banjo but as I pointed out to him (as kindly as I could!), “Dad, your hands are the size of massive bear claws!! Your fingers are almost as wide as the frets on a guitar!! I don’t want to discourage you...but... I honestly don’t think you are even going to be able to press a string without your finger touching the strings above and below it. They’re just...too big!”
    i still don’t understand why you think a person with large fingers would be better off with a mandolin especially since he expressed interest in a guitar. Have you asked him? It is fine if you are interested in playing it and I have known some people who do have large hands or big fingers who can play mandolin quite well but I would ask him what he wants. There are larger mandolin family instruments but few are traditional to bluegrass. You can get mandolins with wider fretboards but generally guitars have more spacing between strings.
    Jim

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  14. #13
    Registered User BBarton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need assistance with a Sigma mandolin PART 1

    Where are you in Ontario? If in GTA or that region, check out Twelfth Fret (on Danforth) in Toronto, or Folkway Music in Waterloo. Both are reputable and knowledgeable dealers in both new and used acoustic instruments, including mandolins. Both also have repair shops.
    I don't understand the 15% Buyer's premium you paid -- I've never heard of that! Good hunting!
    Too many instruments...too little time

  15. #14

    Default Re: Need assistance with a Sigma mandolin PART 1

    Well, in my mind I always thought mandolins were bigger than this! But, I was also thinking along the lines that his fingers are so wide that it 'might' be easier for him because he would only need 2 fingers (right now anyways) to create basic chords, whereas it's pretty much always three at least on the guitar (well, I mean, I guess he 'could' play a few with one or two.) I also thought that learning finger placement on 4 strings (8) would be easier than learning six. And finally, since the actual diameter of his fingers is so large, I just don't know how he would be able to press a string without his finger literally touching the strings above and below it- even if he was using the very end of the tips of his fingers- I just don't think he'll be able to produce any kind of quality chord. With the mandolin, he might have a little more 'wiggle' room- meaning that he could angle his fingers so that he touched the string in the bottom of the set, which may shift his hand down enough to allow his other finger to gain more accuracy on the other set of strings, and he could produce decent sounding chords. (Is this making any sense or am I totally wrong???) LOL Maybe I'm completely out in left field, which MAY well be the case since I have never played a Mandolin! But I do play the guitar and when I think of the sheer size of three of his fingers together, I still don't know how he could manage to get all of them on properly. But....you know what I'm going to do? I am going to take my guitars down with me to his house tomorrow, (and he is getting the Sigma wrapped up just so he something to open- and then I'll take it away from him and tell him he can't keep it because I'm returning it! haha Merry Christmas Dad! LOL) So, we will be able to compare the three instruments and see if one IS actually easier for him to play than another. And I'm going to take some pictures of him on each one....so you guys can SEE how big his hands really are!! Maybe he should learn how to play a bass!?! There's lots of room for his fingers to slide around on that kind of neck isn't there? (Or.....Maybe the spoons would be a good option.....) HAHAHA I'll keep you posted, and if you (or any members!) have any suggestions or see any good deals online that are decent quality Mandolins for a reasonable price...I'd be so grateful if you would forward that info to me ($500-$700 should be able to get him a pretty decent one shouldn't it?) Thanks! Patti

  16. #15
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    Default Re: Need assistance with a Sigma mandolin PART 1

    If your dad's fingers are so big have you thought that playing Dobro or Weissenborn with a slide might be more suitable?

  17. #16

    Default Re: Need assistance with a Sigma mandolin PART 1

    Hi! Yes, I've always wanted to check out Twelfth Fret-( I'm always casually looking for a Larrivee guitar)- I've just never seem to make it down there! I'm in Midwestern Ontario- (Hanover- in the middle of the snowbelt!) so it's about an hour and a half to Kitchener/Waterloo. I'm not familiar with that store, which surprises me since I went to University in Waterloo. Have they been around a long time? At one point there were 2 good stores in Guelph (...maybe called Watson's Music, but I think it closed a number of years ago now) and another store that was in kind of an industrial/store area near the Legion, heading towards Rockwood on #7, but I don't know if it's still there. What about Long & McQuade in Toronto? Did they close? There was another well-known store in Toronto but I can't recall that name either. I think the only way I am going to be happy is if I go and try them out in person. There are just too many variables to consider if you are buying it online. Yes.....the Buyer's Premium... That was something that one auction house came up with, and it caught on like wildfire. They decided they weren't making ENOUGH money charging just the consignor, so they thought: "We'll just arbitrarily add on more- and charge the buyer"- which I think is absolutely ludicrous. The rate started at 3%, then quickly went to five.Then, about a year ago, many were at about 10%, and then when I went in to pick up items a couple days ago, there were signs all over saying a 15% Buyer's Premium was now in effect. I don't know for sure, but I think the Consignor's fees are similar, so if that's the case, it means the auctioneers are making a 30% commission on every single item. I'm glad THEIR wages have continued to go up by 5% or more a year for the last three years. I certainly don't know of ANY people who have ever had 5%/year wage increases every year for the last 3 years! (well actually, if the Consignor's fees are structured the same way, the Auction Houses been giving themselves raises of 10%/year for the last three years. Crazy. No more auctions for me!

  18. #17
    Old Guy Mike Scott's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need assistance with a Sigma mandolin PART 1

    Quote Originally Posted by David Kennedy View Post
    If your dad's fingers are so big have you thought that playing Dobro or Weissenborn with a slide might be more suitable?
    Yep........
    Thanks

    Several mandolins of varying quality-any one of which deserves a better player than I am.......

  19. #18
    Registered User BBarton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need assistance with a Sigma mandolin PART 1

    Folkway Music relocated to Waterloo a few years ago -- they used to be in Guelph. Both Twelfth Fret and Folkway Music have websites you can browse inventory on, but like most acoustic instrument stores, guitars are the main sellers. As far as I know, Long & McQuade are still around.
    Too many instruments...too little time

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