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Thread: Changing Keys in a Song...Can Someone Help Me Understand it?

  1. #1
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    Default Changing Keys in a Song...Can Someone Help Me Understand it?

    Hey all.

    Forgive me, but I didn’t know what section to post this question in. If I’m in the wrong one, please move it for me or close it and let me know where to re-post it to.


    There is something I have never been able to understand about playing the mandolin and I’d like for someone to help me with it. Please explain I’m VERY NOVICE terms.

    I never got to learn this part of playing when I was taking lessons. I was mainly learning chords and some simple songs to pick.

    I would see a song that I’d like to learn or think about asking my teacher about and I’d often hear or see it mentioned that the song was in the key of G, or whatever. Now I am assuming that is the chords to be played for the accompaniment, correct? Then I would see that the song needed to be played in a different key to best match with someone’s voice, maybe D, or whatever. Is that the reason to play a song in a different key?

    So, if the song needs to be played in a different key, does that mean that you switch the chords that it was originally written in to whatever the required key is?

    Are there “rules” that dictate what different chords are played for a song depending on what hey it is in? If so, how do you know what chords to play a song in if all you know about it starting out is that it’s in say G? Naturally you’d have to play G chords for that song....right? Are there other chords that would also be played in addition to the G in this fictitious song I am describing?

    If it needed to be played in D instead of G that you learned it in, you would switch from playing a G chord to a D chord in this exercise wouldn’t you? Are there other chords that would also need to be played as well if you are switching to a D?

    I don’t know if this is called music theory or what. I just know I never did learn what it meant and it always nagged at me for some reason. I’d like to know the basics of what happens, if it’s possible to be explained simple terms.



    One more thing...when I started lessons after I had a month or so under my belt I asked him about all the chords I’d be learning. I wanted to know cause my Buddy plays guitar and I’d see posters and books he’d have that showed hundreds of chords for the guitar and it looked very daunting to a brand new player. When asked about it my teacher told me not to worry about it much. Since I was interested in bluegrass he told me that there were about 6-8 or so chords that would cover 95% of all bluegrass tunes. I might not be exactly right on the figures, but I was relieved when I heard that I would mainly have to learn just a handful of chords to accompany most bluegrass songs and prolly country tunes too.
    Does that sound about right to you?

    Sorry for all the questions. Please explain it as best you can for me if possible.
    Any info you want to offer would be much appreciated.

    Thank you all kindly for your help.
    Larry

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Changing Keys in a Song...Can Someone Help Me Understand it?

    Here's a quick way to transpose to another key:

    http://www.logue.net/xp/

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  4. #3
    Likes quaint instruments poul hansen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changing Keys in a Song...Can Someone Help Me Understand it?

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  6. #4
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    Default Re: Changing Keys in a Song...Can Someone Help Me Understand it?

    A simple answer:
    Bluegrass is more "tradition-bound" than any music o/t classical, so most tunes are "traditionally" played in a specific key. They don't need to be, that's just the way folks do it. AND they tend to center on guitar/mandolin/banjo-friendly keys such as G, D, & A. (Counterpoint: Bluegrass is younger than most other types of music, but Bill Monroe pretty much dictated the form from the '40s on, and many fervently follow his tradition.)

    A more complete answer:
    Any song can be played in any key. A normal reason for changing key is fit the higher or lower vocal range of a singer. Or to be different. Or to have fun. Be careful: This could lead you to "Newgrass", itself now 40-ish years old!

    A more practical answer:
    "Music Theory for Dummies" is a surprisingly easy read. Or The Complete Idiot's Guide to Music Theory; they're both good. While they might seem daunting, they'll save you much effort & confusion, allowing you to deal with future situations with a degree of grace & understanidng... especially when the "Bluegrass Police" come knocking. But that's a whole 'nuther conversation!

    And further:
    - Most BG songs use just 3 major chords, so minor chords can be put on the back burner.
    - Structurally, BG songs tend to be simple. But performance, with each instrument taking alternating leads, is a bit more complex, approaching (dare I say it?) jazz.

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    Default Re: Changing Keys in a Song...Can Someone Help Me Understand it?

    Here is where a little theory can help a lot. The key is the home note, the note the song or tune wants to end up with. One of the reasons for changing keys is as you said to fit someone's voice. The other is to get a different sound from the tune or song.

    The key will have a scale which is a set of eight notes and a set of chords associated with it. There are twelve keys but you probably will only use a few of them depending on the style of music you play. The most used keys in bluegrass are G, D, C, A, E and F with B and Bb used for vocal tunes quite a bit.

    The easiest way to change keys is by using the number system, where each note is assigned a number. Chords are labeled by Roman numerals notes by a regular number. The most common chords you will use in a key are the I, IV and V chords in the key. For example in the key of C the I chord would be C. The IV would count four notes up starting on C as the one which would make it F and the V chord would be G. Similarly in the key D the I,IV and V would be D, G and A or in the key of G they would be G, C and D. These three chords in each key will cover a lot of basic folk, country and bluegrass melodies. The other chords which will be used somewhat frequently are the relative minor chords for these keys. The relative minor is six notes from the major key sot in the key of G it is Em in the key of C it is Am, etc.

    By knowing the numbers and I, IV and V and the minor for each key you can switch the chords for the key fairly easily with a little practice. Some songs, like Salty Dog will use other chords but you have to learn those over time.

    Here are the I-IV-V and relative minor in the common bluegrass keys

    G C D Em
    D G A Bm
    C F G Am
    A D E F#m
    E A B C#m
    F Bb C Dm

    B E F# G#m
    Bb Eb F Gm



    Hopefully this will help you to start. Changing the notes themselves and the scales is a little more complicated. A teacher could help you quite a bit with all of this. It can be shown in person a lot more easily than explained in words here.

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    Default Re: Changing Keys in a Song...Can Someone Help Me Understand it?

    Poul's post with the ruler is a great looking tool.
    I wish I had had one when I first started playing.
    You may also pull up a printable copy of a "CIRCLE OF FIFTHS". Easily available with a GOOGLE search along with an explanation of how to use it.
    Besides the reasons already stated for playing in a particular key I sometimes change to play in a key I find more comfortable to play for my non-professional skills or to play in a key that others wish to play.
    Last edited by Pittsburgh Bill; Dec-22-2020 at 5:36pm.
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    Default Re: Changing Keys in a Song...Can Someone Help Me Understand it?

    The Circle of Fifths

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    Registered User Murphy Slaw's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changing Keys in a Song...Can Someone Help Me Understand it?

    There are no rules.

    Except in Bluegrass.......
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    Default Re: Changing Keys in a Song...Can Someone Help Me Understand it?

    Quote Originally Posted by EdHanrahan View Post
    A more practical answer:
    "Music Theory for Dummies" is a surprisingly easy read. Or The Complete Idiot's Guide to Music Theory; they're both good. While they might seem daunting, they'll save you much effort & confusion, allowing you to deal with future situations with a degree of grace & understanidng...
    I think this is a great idea. Both of these books are very useful in answering specifically what you are after.

    You are asking the right questions.

    Any musical instrument is an ocean of information, and can be daunting. If I knew so many years ago what i was getting into I might never had started. Ahhh but you have to spend your life on something.

    Just because there is a lot of water doesn't mean you have to stand in front of an open hydrant. There are lots of great books and teachers that can sort this all out.

    Remember, you don't have to be prepared for everything - you only need to be prepared for the next step. And patience. It takes years to sound like you have been playing for years.
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  18. #10

    Default Re: Changing Keys in a Song...Can Someone Help Me Understand it?

    Check out Duke Sharps’s book Garage Band Theory. It’s exactly what you need.

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    Default Re: Changing Keys in a Song...Can Someone Help Me Understand it?

    [QUOTE=EdHanrahan;
    "Music Theory for Dummies" is a surprisingly easy read. Or The Complete Idiot's Guide to Music Theory; they're both good. While they might seem daunting, they'll save you much effort & confusion, allowing you to deal with future situations with a degree of grace & understanidng... especially when the "Bluegrass Police" come knocking. But that's a whole 'nuther conversation!

    [/QUOTE]

    When I first started playing I read a book called(I think) TEACH YOURSELF TO READ MUSIC. I found reading music rather simple to learn and with much practice not too difficult to develop some skill.
    When I read MUSIC THEORY FOR DUMMIES it did not take me long to realize that music theory is not for dummies. I also quickly understood how music could become a college major that people dedicate their life to learning or mastering.
    Just keep at it while having fun. Once you get past this hurdle you will discover more hurdles.
    I was quite surprised when I started to find tunes that had multiple keys in the same tune. This was especially true when I was introduced to classical music.
    I am hopeful that the good advice provided to your question from the respondents helps and keep asking questions.
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    Default Re: Changing Keys in a Song...Can Someone Help Me Understand it?

    Quote Originally Posted by NDO View Post
    Check out Duke Sharps’s book Garage Band Theory. It’s exactly what you need.
    Awesome book. I'm an advancing beginner and find it really easy to read and understand. You can get an ecopy on his website, but if you want a hard copy, reach out to him directly.

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  24. #13
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changing Keys in a Song...Can Someone Help Me Understand it?

    To answer some of your specific questions

    Yes the "key" of a piece of music (song or tune) influences the chords played in the tune. A song in the key of G will have more chords than G normally, though. The song will ramble a bit across a few chords, this is called a chord progression. If you play a song in G and then decide to play the same song in D, all the chords of the song will be changed to fit the new key; that is to say the entire chord progression changes as far as the chord names go - but they do change according to rule. So the answer to "Are there “rules” that dictate what different chords are played for a song depending on what hey it is in?" is yes. The pattern of the chord progression remains the same. You play the same number of chords in the same manner in D as you did in G.

    For illustration, lets say the chord progression of a song goes like this: G - C - D - G

    To play it in D you would play this progression D - G - A - D. This imaginary song has a chord progression of I - IV - V - I. If you look at the "chart" posted above by CarlM you can see the pattern. To play the same song in C the progression would be C - F - G - C

    The good news is that there are "rules" or patterns, not wild guesses, and you can learn them. The tools and books mentioned above (and countless others, including videos and websites about music theory) can help you get a handle on it over time.

    I've written some articles on it as well, which you can see at my website here: http://www.markgunter.net/search.php?searchStr=abc

    It is a work in progress, and feel free to send me an email through that site if you get stuck trying to learn this stuff, I usually have time to help a fellow musician along with it.

    Music is like life, it doesn't happen all at once, it is a lifetime of learning new things. That goes for all of us.

    Afterthought: Here is an article about some of the ways numbers work in music: http://markgunter.net/includes/download.php?hash=78&t=1
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