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Thread: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback

  1. #1

    Default Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback

    Hello, and thank you for allowing me to join!

    I'm a complete beginner to mandolin, although I have some limited knowledge of researching vintage guitars. Anyway, this nice old thing with a Barnes & Mullins label landed with me over Christmas, and while it does need some help, I'm hoping it might eventually be OK to learn on. It does have a few problems, hopefully nothing that can't be fixed.

    One thing that intrigues me is that although it looks to me similar in style to some of the Italian bowlbacks that B&M were selling in the 1920s and 30s, I can't find many, if any, references to a flatback in that style. I wonder if it might have been a sample? B&M say that in their opinion it's 1960s or 70s, an idea which I've rejected completely until someone here tells me different I suppose it's possible that somebody might have stuck a B&M label into an unbranded older instrument, but it doesn't seem that likely.

    It was probably nothing very fancy when it was made, but the decoration includes silver and MOP, so perhaps not the most basic model either. It's been well-played in the past.

    So, if anyone has any thoughts on my new friend, I'd be very grateful indeed to hear them. I don't even know whether it's OK to string it up, until it's been checked over, or what strings to use. As far as I can tell so far, it sounds really quite nice. It seems to be missing a tension bar among other bits, not sure how vital that is.

    Thanks in advance for your patience with a newbie

    Carole
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  3. #2

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback

    Well, it looks to be German made- most probably Markneukirchen in Saxony and possibly made just before the Great War or in the early 1920s. It is typical of its type and these mandolins were imported by British dealers. I have one that does not have the recessed tuners and it was sold by Arthur Windsor of Birmingham. I will post a photo. Is there an address for B & M inside on the label. How they state the London postal region may help date it- Rathbone Pace, W1 or just plain W? W1 was introduced in 1917 and old labels could have been used for a while.
    Here is my Windsor below- the appointments are a bit different but it is the same style of mandolin from the same era.


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  5. #3

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback

    Thanks Nick, I'd wondered if it was German, that certainly makes more sense although the style of the decoration seems Italian to me - although as I've said, I know nothing! It feels and looks 1915-1920s to me (I'm almost 60 and grew up around stuff of that era). I don't think there's an address, unfortunately. But I'll look again.

  6. #4

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback

    The neck volute suggests earlier rather than later. Is the headstock separate to the neck and then they were glued together? My Windsor has an all in one headstock and neck. Maybe you can post more photos so we can see the whole of the back.

  7. #5

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback

    OK, the label is, in my opinion, Art Nouveau in style, although labels might have remained in use for a while after styles had changed, I suppose. I've brushed off some of the thickest dust, and there is a number, "99" - so that rules out my sample idea . There isn't an address - suppose that might either imply that B&M were still at their original address, or that it's a generic label...?

    Just discovered this post here https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...style-(w-Pics) has the same label - and looks very similar indeed. I think the tuners on mine are bone, though.
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    Last edited by MidwinterSun; Dec-29-2020 at 3:09pm.

  8. #6

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback

    Barnes & Mullins began in the 1890s and I agree that the label does look very stylised and possibly influenced aby the Art Nouveau movement. I saw a label on a B & M mandolin that was early and it was plain with the two founder's signatures printed on it- possibly a later style. The headstock and neck are two separate units and again this suggests it is old. Interestingly, the top inlay on the fingerboard that looks like a cog. I have a guitar made in Schonbach just a few miles from Markneukirchen but across the border in what was then Czechoslovakia, made in 1934 that has them! However, inlays might be made over many decades- or were in stock for many years. Germany was the inlay making hub for the instrument world although just as German instrument makers emigrated- so did the inlay makers. I would fit a temporary plastic tuner button and string it up with ultra light strings- 9-32. I buy mine from the USA from Strings & Beyond- GHS brand but it was mentioned here that Newtone sell the same gauge in the UK. Once you have the strings on then tune up towards concert pitch with care- and observe what is going on- and stop if something untoward begins to manifest. Check that the tuners turn easily etc- as they are recessed behind plates if these is a problem you will have to take the covers off and that is annoying if you have put on the strings already if you have to take anything apart.

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  10. #7

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback

    Barnes & Mullins began in the 1890s and I agree that the label does look very stylised and possibly influenced aby the Art Nouveau movement. I saw a label on a B & M mandolin that was early and it was plain with the two founder's signatures printed on it- possibly a later style. The headstock and neck are two separate units and again this suggests it is old. Interestingly, the top inlay on the fingerboard that looks like a cog. I have a guitar made in Schonbach just a few miles from Markneukirchen but across the border in what was then Czechoslovakia, made in 1934 that has them! However, inlays might be made over many decades- or were in stock for many years. Germany was the inlay making hub for the instrument world although just as German instrument makers emigrated- so did the inlay makers. I would fit a temporary plastic tuner button and string it up with ultra light strings- 9-32. I buy mine from the USA from Strings & Beyond- GHS brand but it was mentioned here that Newtone sell the same gauge in the UK. Once you have the strings on then tune up towards concert pitch with care- and observe what is going on- and stop if something untoward begins to manifest. Check that the tuners turn easily etc- as they are recessed behind plates if these is a problem you will have to take the covers off and that is annoying if you have put on the strings already if you have to take anything apart. There is a possibility the mandolin was made in Italy but I think that Germany is more likely.

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  12. #8

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback

    Thanks so much for this information, Nick - I really appreciate it. I agree that the fingerboard inlays are interesting, and possibly indicative of location, or maker.

    This is all fascinating to me, and a lot to take in for someone who has no experience of doing even the most basic work myself. Not knowing how the tuner buttons fit on, I had wondered about making one in situ from epoxy modelling material, but would rather do it properly. The 2 or 3 little splits in the top are probably beyond me, and worry me about putting strings on. The tuners do all seem to turn nicely, though.

    Thanks again, and apologies to everyone who's seen dozens of these before

  13. #9

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback

    I found this mandolin- it has been on eBay in Germany. The listing has gone so only this small photo remains. It is a Luigi Dorigo of Naples mandolin. By all accounts he supplied mandolins to Barnes & Mullins. I have a mandolin from about 1930 and its label is from Monzino & Garlandi of Milan. It is clearly a German mandolin and almost certainly one made by Meinel & Herold of Klingenthal and was then exported to the UK. I found an article in Italian that mentioned that the firm had a family member who was apprenticed to an instrument maker in Saxony and he subsequently when he advanced in the company bought instruments from Saxony. Just as my Arthur Windsor mandolin was not made by Arthur Windsor, other makers/dealers did the same. It is possible your mandolin was made by a German maker and bought by Luigi Dorigo either partially complete or complete and then sent to London to fulfil a request for flatback mandolins. It is impossible to tell from photos but I assume somebody experienced in the brand might be able to see tell tale evidence of that maker's work. However, this Luigi Dorigo to my eye has Germany stamped all over it.
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    This is the Monzino & Garlandi mandolin:

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    Here is the back- I think the heel is probably a lot like yours.

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  15. #10

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback

    All very topical in the context of Brexit! And, in essence, that's what I'd been thinking. It feels matter-of-fact and German in all but the pickguard - which seems to me either Neapolitan or Sicilian (seagulls and flowers), but could easily have been applied after manufacture, perhaps to give the appearance of an Italian-made instrument. Like you, I think it could easily be a hybrid, and hence very confusing for anyone trying to find out about it!

    This is really an amazingly knowledgeable forum. I'd be interested to see the Italian article, if you still have the link.

  16. #11

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback

    This is the text as translated that is pertinent:

    1929 Antonio Carlo VI trained at the lutherie schools of Mirecourt and Markneukirchen enters the company under the guidance of his uncle Carlo Garlandini and his mother Margherita Monzino and develops the import business alongside the production and retail shop under the name Monzino and Garlandini . This enterprise was then owned by an extended family in which the Garlandini cousins ​​were involved. In fact, it was her aunt, Rosa Garlandini, who managed the retail store in via Larga, at number 20.

    It is from this link: https://www.fetishguitars.com/lombar...no-garlandini/

    The fact that an Italian maker is importing instruments- like my mandolin is interesting. I have seen another obviously German mandolin sold with an Italian retail/maker's name in the UK. If you had a contract with a British dealer and were asked for something you did not make it might make sense to get that instrument type and then sell it to your British dealer rather than risk him going elsewhere to get such an instrument and possibly lessen his dependency on you as a supplier.

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  18. #12

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback

    That would make perfect sense.

  19. #13

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback

    Newtone Strings have .008 to .030 as their lightest gauge - does that sound OK?

  20. #14

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback

    Yes, starting at a very low gauge is good for two reasons- less tension on the instrument when you string it up and if all goes well, less of an ordeal for you as a learner in terms of damage to your finger tips! I always use very light strings but that's in the main because the way I play, I like to be able to do bends with the strings which is downright impossible with heavier gauge strings.

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  22. #15

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback

    Great - I've ordered some!

  23. #16
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    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback

    Midwinter Sun, what a charming old instrument! I've never heard of the maker, or seen one like it, but it's always a pleasure to see something like this for the first time. Nice workmanship on your mandolin(i.e. v-joint for the headstock): is it rosewood back and sides? Hopefully you can have it up and running soon, and be playing it!

  24. #17

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback

    Hi Dave, it is a lovely old thing, and I'm very attached to it.

    Sadly, it does need some fairly major work, so will have to remain as a future project until either I gain some repair skills myself or can find someone willing to do significant work on it. Despite this, as far as I can tell, it sounds great too, so I'll persevere with it.

    If nothing else, it's an interesting piece of B&M history.

    Carole

  25. #18

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback

    One can never find out for sure if it is made in Italy or Germany. There were many very similar instruments being made in both Sicily and Germany at the same time. The competition between them was fierce and they closely watched each other. Some Sicilian makers were using German hardware, which confuse things further. And large scale importers, lake Barnes and Mullins were probably buying in both Saxony and Sicily not sticking to a single country or a supplier.

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  27. #19

    Default Re: Older Barnes & Mullins Flatback

    It's fascinating!

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