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Thread: Bad habits?

  1. #1
    Registered User Hammerless's Avatar
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    Default Bad habits?

    I have a couple ‘newbie’ questions. I’ve only been at it for two weeks and have started developing pretty hard calluses on the three fingertips of my left hand and still finding it difficult to strum the basic chords clearly. The center-to-center distance at the nut between the outside G string and outside E string is 61/64ths of an inch (15/16 plus 1/64) on my cheep-o, non-radiused, mandolin. Previous threads discuss the nut widths of Kentucky (1-1/8”) and Eastman (1-3/32”) but how does that relate to the overall width of the strings?
    Does a radiused fretboard help with fingers clearing adjacent strings?
    Besides working on the scales I started with strumming through the G-chord progression (G-C-D-G) now working the Em (0-2-2-0) into it I find that it’s easier obtaining a clear strum sound using my middle and ring finger instead of my index and middle finger; which I doubt is a big deal but then find myself only using my middle and ring fingers for the rest of the progression for the C, D and G chords. My question is, which I apologize for probably being silly, am I forming a habit that I may regret later as I progress if I continue forming these chords this way? I don’t want to introduce habits that I will regret in the future.

  2. #2
    not a donut Kevin Winn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bad habits?

    Nut width relates to the string spacing (or more specifically the spacing between the pairs [or courses] of strings) the same way as on a guitar. A wider nut means more space between the courses. I think the space between the individual strings in the course remain constant, and relatively standard, but I'll let a luthier chime in on that. I have read several posts from former guitar players who felt like a wide nut made it easier to transition, but when I tried one after playing just a few months, it felt really awkward. I have one now with 1 1/8" and one with 1 3/16" and don't really notice that much difference in playing them. Others would notice this difference in nut width like a gluten free cookie vs a regular one. YMMV

    Fretboard radius (or lack thereof) seems to be a personal preference, based on the shape of your hands and what feels comfortable. Again, like guitars, some folks prefer a flat fretboard, some like a smaller radius (more curve) or bigger (less curve, but not flat). Personally, I didn't notice that much difference going from a radiused mandolin (Eastman 315) to a flat (Weber Bitterroot) then back to radiused (F5S). Your hands will let you know which is more comfortable for you.

    If you are talking about the two-fingered versions of the G C D Em chords, I don't think it's a big deal which fingers you use for those. I sometimes play them with index and middle, sometimes with middle and ring; depends on what else I'm doing (fills, etc.) in the tune. As long as you have the proper left hand position (and it's not the same as proper left hand position on a guitar), I think you can use whichever fingering works best for your hands.
    "Keep your hat on, we may end up miles from here..." - Kurt Vonnegut

  3. #3
    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bad habits?

    Yes BAD habit! use your index and middle to get your G then you can introduce your ring finger and then your pinky to get the full G chop chord-Its all a pattern of repetition/practice.

    On your mandolin, if its a real cheapo as ya call it, and your going to stick with it, its worth getting something better to start with thats better quality or just get yours looked at if possible by someone reputable as even a great mandolin can be terrible if its set-up bad! I learned on a flat board and no issues, and play radius also.

    Post some pix here and maybe someone can help? Give ya more pointers? There is a Gent here Rob Meldrum that used to give out set-up sheets/email or something?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Bad habits?

    I set up the 1 3/16 nuts on my mandolins around 1.06 outside to outside G to E strings.

    To help with not hitting adjacent strings your fingers should be aligned more along the length of the fingerboard like a fiddle player rather than trying to curl down with the tips as a guitar player does. Reducing finger pressure to the minimum necessary to get a clean tone helps a lot also. Most people press too hard to make up for fingers not quite being placed quite correctly. They should be just behind the fretbar, not on it nor halfway between them.

    As far as which fingers to use, ideally you want to choose the fingers that do not require you to shift your entire hand as you play through the chords. You want to keep your hand in one position on the neck as much as possible. This makes the changes smoother, quicker and cleaner. Some shifts are necessary but you want to minimize them.

  5. #5
    Pittsburgh Bill
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    Default Re: Bad habits?

    Now is the time to work on any habit you perceive as being at issue. When I first started playing I was planting my pinky. After realizing that this was not conducive to my playing I began working with much effort to stop. I, in turn, traded that habit for another bad habit of resting the heel of my pick hand on the bridge. I would often mute my mandolin on the G strings. Then again with much effort I finally taught myself to play with a free pick hand. Each effort was quite daunting and would have been much easier had I eliminated these habits early on or better yet never started.
    Big Muddy EM8 solid body (Mike Dulak's final EM8 build)
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  6. #6
    Registered User Hammerless's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bad habits?

    "1.06 outside to outside G to E strings"
    Wow, I didn't realize that the 'nut width dimension was outside to outside ... I thought it was overall nut length! My calipers read 0.973" (new J-73's) outside to outside! I've been looking at the Kentucky 270's and Eastman 304's and was leaning towards the Kentucky just because of the slightly wider nut length but hell, that small difference may not matter because the old "Tenada" that I'm starting out with is so narrow that probably anything 1-1/16th or over would make my chording much easier and cleaner sounding.
    My current instrument that I bought new impulsively 40+ years ago and then ended up sticking it in the back of my various closets. I dug it out a few years back and because of my inexperience, poor construction and lack of proper set up took it to a local music store. They did some hack work on it but because of their lack of knowledge the bridge is not in the proper place for intonation. I would adjust the bridge myself but if I shift it off of the supporting dowels (see picture 2, you can see the dowel through the sound hole) I'm afraid that the plywood top will sink further than it is now. Another thing is that I think the crack that has developed at the neck/body joint is getting wider since I've got the strings tuned as best I can.
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  7. #7
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bad habits?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerless View Post
    "1.06 outside to outside G to E strings"
    Wow, I didn't realize that the 'nut width dimension was outside to outside ... I thought it was overall nut length! My calipers read 0.973" (new J-73's) outside to outside! I've been looking at the Kentucky 270's and Eastman 304's and was leaning towards the Kentucky just because of the slightly wider nut length but hell, that small difference may not matter because the old "Tenada" that I'm starting out with is so narrow that probably anything 1-1/16th or over would make my chording much easier and cleaner sounding.
    My current instrument that I bought new impulsively 40+ years ago and then ended up sticking it in the back of my various closets. I dug it out a few years back and because of my inexperience, poor construction and lack of proper set up took it to a local music store. They did some hack work on it but because of their lack of knowledge the bridge is not in the proper place for intonation. I would adjust the bridge myself but if I shift it off of the supporting dowels (see picture 2, you can see the dowel through the sound hole) I'm afraid that the plywood top will sink further than it is now. Another thing is that I think the crack that has developed at the neck/body joint is getting wider since I've got the strings tuned as best I can.
    Your habits are not going to matter one way or the other unless you have a playable instrument. An instrument that doesn't intonate right does nothing for your abilities one way or the other. A $50.00 Rogue mandolin from Guitar Center or MusiciansFriend properly setup will take you giant steps beyond what you are trying to learn on. Forum Member Rob Meldrum has a free eBook on mandolin setup that would help anything new. I wouldn't even try to fix what you have right now.

    I see the Rogue is up to $80.00 now so watch for sales.

    https://www.musiciansfriend.com/folk...19193000056000
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    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  9. #8
    Registered User Bren's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bad habits?

    I just measured my (newly-acquired from COVID non-travel savings and equipment sales) Eastman 815 , (not killer price but definitely not cheapo) nominal 1-3/32" nut, and the distance at the nut from outside G to outside E is 61/64", just like your Cheep-O.

    (Cheep-O is an excellent type by the way, which I played exclusively in several models for about twenty-five years before I got the cash and spousal blessing necessary for a decent mando.)

    the new Eastman with its very narrow neck is challenging, because my other two (remaining) mandolins are custom-built wide-necks, and I have big hands with short fat fingers.
    However, I'm still able to get clean chording and picking.

    Thanks to experience, I guess. I'm self taught with a lifetime of bad habits, some of which I can't change, but I've been at it on and off for 45 years.

    The good news for you is that you have only started and have time to change.

    For the G-D-Em-C, (Rock me mama like a ...) try to work on using 1st & 2nd finger - because that will make changing to other chords easier and smoother in the long run.
    But feel free to use 2nd & 3rd in between times so at least you know what clean fretting sounds like.

    Eventually you will probably do what I and many others do - simply play those two finger adjacent same-fret chords like Em with one finger. Close string spacing is a help in that respect.

    Eventually, you get used to a certain economy of movement where you don't press too hard and even then, only for as long as necessary to get the sound you want.

    The technical/mechanical bits that help with that are good finger calluses, good set-up with low action, good strings, good frets .

    I don't think anybody ever got all that sorted in their first two weeks.

    I certainly didn't.
    Bren

  10. #9
    Registered User Bren's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bad habits?

    Actually, if I was playing that progression using all two-finger chords, it would depend on which versions of the chords.

    The G and the C could be played on 2nd & 3rd frets (1st 2nd fingers) or 3rd & 5th frets (2nd & 3rd fingers)
    Bren

  11. #10
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    Default Re: Bad habits?

    We all have bad habits, some worse than others. I have very small hands and very short fingers, I sometimes (with some chords) will fret my G-string with my thumb like when I can't reach low "E" on my guitars. Not a great idea, but I use it when I need to. As long as you are aware it is wrong, I think it can work in a pinch.

  12. #11
    Registered User Hammerless's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bad habits?

    Thanks for all the great advise. After six decades of living I appreciate the advantage of establishing good habits and form from the very beginning; I know that I need to be patient with myself (now that I have almost conquered forming the F chord my new challenge is getting the A minor chord (2-2-3-5) to sound clean and clear; although I have found 5-2-0-0 that sounds fine to me). Another thing that I know is that it's pretty tough to make something beautiful from crappy material so I'm looking forward to receiving the Kentucky 276 that I ordered from TMS yesturday!
    Thanks again for all the good advise.

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