Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 99

Thread: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

  1. #51
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Posts
    5,293

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post
    It is simply untrue that fast playing lacks "expressivity." Poor playing lacks expressivity. Great playing generally results in great music, at any of the intended tempos.
    I wouldn't say that fast playing lacks expression, but it can make some trade-offs in the available ways to express the music.

    For example, when I hear a good Bluegrass player doing "Fisher's Hornpipe" at a typical BG tempo, they always flatten out the rhythm pulse so it lacks the bounce or swing of the same tune played in Irish sessions. That's neither good nor bad; there is no way to insert the subtle rhythm shifts between notes at that much faster tempo. It's just trading off one mode of expression for another.

    Which I guess is another way of saying you can't have everything. You can't have the emotional expression of a slow ballad, and the swing of a dance tune, and the excitement of a blistering uptempo performance all at the same time. It's all good, but not interchangeable.

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to foldedpath For This Useful Post:

    maxrRob Roy 

  3. #52
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Albany NY
    Posts
    2,065

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post

    Which I guess is another way of saying you can't have everything. You can't have the emotional expression of a slow ballad, and the swing of a dance tune, and the excitement of a blistering uptempo performance all at the same time. It's all good, but not interchangeable.
    True and well put

    Except if you are Tony Rice
    Stormy Morning Orchestra

    My YouTube Channel

    "Mean Old Timer, He's got grey hair, Mean Old Timer he just don't care
    Got no compassion, thinks its a sin
    All he does is sit around an play the Mandolin"

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to tmsweeney For This Useful Post:


  5. #53

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    I don't mind the speed, but I still have trouble keeping up in a jam.

    My very first BG jam was kinda funny, I couldn't play 16ths at a sustained 90bpm back then, which was the defacto tempo at that jam.

    So I went over to the beginners circle. And they started every tune at 60 bpm (as promised), and they (or we) rushed up to 90 bpm within about 16 measures.

    So I played melody at the start of every tune, and rhythm backup after that.

    Looking back it was pretty funny.
    Davey Stuart tenor guitar (based on his 18" mandola design).
    Eastman MD-604SB with Grover 309 tuners.
    Eastwood 4 string electric mandostang, 2x Airline e-mandola (4-string) one strung as an e-OM.
    DSP's: Helix HX Stomp, various Zooms.
    Amps: THR-10, Sony XB-20.

  6. The following members say thank you to kurth83 for this post:

    maxr 

  7. #54
    Registered User Petrus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    2,623

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    I don't see what the debate is, it's all a matter of taste and mood. I have pieces/songs in my mp3 collection all across the tempo and mood spectrum. All depends on what mood I'm in at a given time. Some folks like it fast all the time others like it slower all the time but I think most people appreciate a variety of styles and tempos, the critical point being the talent of the musicians.

    It makes me wonder occasionally if one can be considered a prodigy or great talent if one only plays fairly slow tempo ... Segovia comes to mind; iirc, few classical guitar pieces are of very high tempo. Can a musician demonstrate great talent at moderate tempos? Sure, I suppose I'd judge based on the complexity of the piece and how the musician brings it across. Is it a different kind of talent to be able to play really fast, versus moderately? I dunno.

    I know banjo jokes are cliche by now (briefly referenced by the original poster) but I've come to love the banjo and its sound over the years (thanks mainly to the incomparable Bela Fleck, whom I had the great fortune to see live a few years ago) and its native territory seems to be in the high tempo range. IMO banjo jokes arise due to bad players or out of tune banjos. When it's played by a master like Fleck it's no joke!

    I must confess that I do like to mess around with song tempos a lot ... mp3 players make it easy to vary speed and often I find myself listening to a particular song at 1.05-1.10% speed or maybe slowed down to 95% depending on my mood. Blackberry Blossom at 110% speed is pretty insane, fwiw.

    I don't play as much these days, so my comments are mainly from the listener's point of view rather than the players. My playing is sub-mediocre at best.

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Petrus For This Useful Post:

    DavidKOSmaxr 

  9. #55
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Posts
    5,293

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrus View Post
    It makes me wonder occasionally if one can be considered a prodigy or great talent if one only plays fairly slow tempo ... Segovia comes to mind; iirc, few classical guitar pieces are of very high tempo. Can a musician demonstrate great talent at moderate tempos?
    The Irish fiddler Martin Hayes has made a career out of slowing down and "milking" trad tunes for all they're worth on his duo albums with Dennis Cahill. He can play fast too. He's a member of a famous cèilidh band and shows up occasionally in pub sessions. But he's mostly famous for his slower approach.

    The genre of music has to be accepting enough to support it though. I've noticed a trend in recent years of more famous Irish and Scottish trad artists including at least a few "slow reels" on their recordings; intentionally slowed versions of tunes usually played fast, just for contrast. I like to play a few reels that way like Morning Dew, Maids of Mitchelstown, and The J.B. Reel, inspired by artists who recorded them as slower than normal versions.

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to foldedpath For This Useful Post:


  11. #56
    Registered User Hendrik Ahrend's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Leer, Northern Germany
    Posts
    1,554

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    I found that most any - certainly not all - newer (recorded) version of an older song or tune is faster than the original from the 40s - 60s (live anyway). Try and play "Little Cabin Home on the Hill", "Rose of Old KY", "Uncle Pen", "Widow maker" or "Wheel Hoss" in the original tempo in a jam session - almost impossible to my experience. "Times have changed, we call it progress."

  12. #57
    Registered User Polecat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    South Germany
    Posts
    604

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    I dislike music that is faster than I can think - that says more about me than the music. It is why I tend not to listen to much bluegrass, and prefer to listen to scottish rather than irish traditional music; it is generally less dominated by the speed merchants. Having said that, I have tremendous respect for anyone who has the discipline and ability to achieve those breakneck tempos. As regards expression at high speed, if my ears and brain can't keep up with what's going on, how can my heart? Again, this is a highly personal point of view, and, just to stand by my own contradictions, I find in the Charlie Parker quintet recordings with Miles Davis, that Bird's headlong playing is way more emotionally charged than Miles's, and Lester Young, who by modern standards was little more than a good intermediate technician, frequently moves me to tears. That said, I practice almost daily with a metronome and keep a journal recording what tempo I can play what piece at. Go figure...
    "Give me a mandolin and I'll play you rock 'n' roll" (Keith Moon)

  13. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Polecat For This Useful Post:


  14. #58

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    As much as one has to practice playing fast, I think you also have to practice listening fast.

  15. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to mmuller For This Useful Post:


  16. #59
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Gainesville, FL
    Posts
    2,664

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    I guess all of us amateurs just want to play like Bill. I know I do but it is an elusive goal.

  17. #60
    Registered User Al Trujillo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Southern Colorado
    Posts
    694

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    For years my wife was always telling me to slow down.

  18. #61
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Central Illinois
    Posts
    3,563

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Trujillo View Post
    For years my wife was always telling me to slow down.
    Playing music ?

  19. #62
    Registered User J.C. Bryant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Poplar Bluff, Missouri
    Posts
    460

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    I have been away for several days and missed this thread. But I have really enjoyed reading this morning. I have some of the same feelings of the music being too fast, or what I call "gymnastic". I wrestle with trying to play fast. I work with a metronoome and all, but I doublt if I will ever be as fast as I sometimes think I am supposed to be. But that is the problem, really. I push myself even when I am playing for myself. The music is beautiful played slower, I like it but I would not say that is the way everyone should play it. I find that played slower just demonstrates the tune more. I really love Barron Collins-Hill's attitude. He plays some of the same tunes and they are nice. Can he play faster, I bet he can and does when he needs to and I would also bet when they are all playing too fast for him he decides to stand by and listen. It is not a contest, it is all about (I have to remind myself) about enjoying the journey and playing not to impress someone else but to soothe that place within my own person. I love the doing and I love the sound and I love learning. I plahy slower most of the time, why, "because I can!"

  20. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to J.C. Bryant For This Useful Post:


  21. #63

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Good conversation!

    I think you can find the kind of BG you want to listen to and to play. It's all out there.

    I guess I would add that a set list can define slow or fast too. If you play a ballad and follow it with an uptempo fiddle tune, its fast. The gunslingers always include a ballad or two. People who play slower tunes include bit of a foot stomper. If it's faster, its fast. I don't think an audience says well that was 210 bpm and shoulda been 230.

    Personally I love the variety. I like to hear the good old humans with their cowboy hats blazing through old school BG followed by Berkley-grass improvers followed by a brother style duo. It's all out there!

    Kitty Hayes was a master of Irish music. She played at a hypnotic sort of lope speed. Frankie Gavin is a master of Irish music. He likes to blaze. We can all find our place.
    Girouard Concert A5
    Girouard Custom A4
    Nordwall Cittern
    Barbi Mandola
    Crump OM-1s Octave
    www.singletonstreet.com

  22. The following members say thank you to Chuck Leyda for this post:


  23. #64
    Barn Cat Mandolins Bob Clark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Beautiful Salem County, NJ
    Posts
    2,004

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    While I favor listening to and playing slower pieces of music, I think the slow pieces can often be played best by players who have the technical ability to play fast, but make the decision to play slowly. If you play slowly because you cannot play fast, perhaps improving your technical ability to the point where you can play fast will improve your music even when you play slow.

    I admit that my ability to play fast is very limited. I can play certain pieces of music that I have practiced well, at a high tempo, but it does not come naturally to me. Once I can play them well fast, though, I can play them even better slow. It improves my ability to play fluidly, and that adds to the musicality of the piece. That, to me is the most important characteristic, even more so than tempo.

    Ultimately, to me, the main thing is that we enjoy our playing, and keep striving for improvement. If the joy gets lost, there is no point, regardless of tempo.
    Purr more, hiss less. Barn Cat Mandolins Photo Album

  24. The following members say thank you to Bob Clark for this post:


  25. #65
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Albany NY
    Posts
    2,065

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Bob Clark I agree, while playing fast usually involves repetitious practice, playing slow "expressively" really take either an innate voice or years and years of experience playing and performing music.
    I will say in my younger days I was eager experience the next fast complex driving piece of music in any genre ( rock ,classical, jazz, bluegrass, experimental) now I find greater comfort in the simple melodies and harmonies that are played so beautifully by so many.
    Stormy Morning Orchestra

    My YouTube Channel

    "Mean Old Timer, He's got grey hair, Mean Old Timer he just don't care
    Got no compassion, thinks its a sin
    All he does is sit around an play the Mandolin"

  26. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to tmsweeney For This Useful Post:


  27. #66
    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Outer Spiral Arm, of Galaxy, NW Oregon.
    Posts
    17,103

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    It's the NASCAR of Folk Music..
    writing about music
    is like dancing,
    about architecture

  28. #67
    Stop the chop!
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    europe
    Posts
    1,698
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post
    1. I'm afraid that the answer to your question is YES, you ARE being a grumpy old man to complain about this.


    5. Early bluegrass music, especially from groups like Bill Monroe, the Stanley Brothers, Blue Sky Boys, etc., was often played live, as dance music -- not to some seated audience. A lot of American folk dance music (e.g., clogging, contra) is designed to be up-tempo.

    6. Bluegrass music was famously described by the late Pete Seeger as "folk music in overdrive." Very apt. When Bill Monroe invented this form of music in the late 1940's, he deliberately raised both the instrumental tempos and the vocal keys (songs sung in Bb and B) to sound more exciting! The introduction of Earl Scrugg's fast, 3-finger picked banjo helped in this regard, too. These tactics worked well, and bluegrass became a commercial success, esp. on the radio. It was more exciting than most oldtime folk music of the day to a large segment of the listening audience, and it sold recordings better. So, you could make the case that it was changed for commercial reasons.

    7. This may not be true of you, but in my own experience, the majority of beginner and intermediate mandolin players who claim to "dislike" fast bluegrass tempos often do so not merely because they're unhappy with the sound, but mainly because their own playing technique is insufficiently advanced to keep up, for example, in bluegrass jams or playing alongside bluegrass recordings. As their own technique advances, these complaints tend to go away! The best mandolinists whom I know don't ever complain about bluegrass tempos -- just the beginners. That tells me a lot. I have never heard Chris Thile, Sam Bush, Tim O'Brien, Mike Marshall complain about bluegrass tempos.

    8. Certain oldtime musicians tend to be extremely conservative, and they have long rejected all the "new-fangled" innovations in bluegrass to this very day, including both the higher vocal keys and the raised tempos. These same people might also object to the occasional non-traditional chords found in bluegrass. Of course, we later got a generation of conservative bluegrass fans who proceeded to object to Newgrass/Dawg music, which had introduced further musical idioms, phrases and chords, not previously heard in Bill Monroe's music. And so it goes. We call this progress.

    9. We're all entitled to our opinion! You might find others who share your opinion and prefer to play bluegrass standards at slower-then-usual tempos -- and not just 'cuz they're beginners and can't manage higher speeds. If so, then more power to you, I say!
    So it's Pete Seeger this time. Well, I trust my own memory, having read Alan Lomax's article in Esquire magazine, and, yes, here it is: https://classic.esquire.com/article/...ass-background.

    And, for the nth time: no one invents a genre. The historical process by which we recognize a genre cannot be described as one single person's invention. Monroe in no way invented three finger style banjo and Don Reno and Earl Scruggs played in other groups before joining his band. According to Scruggs the first BG band was the Morris Brothers., but Monroe's band became the model for many because it was recorded on a major label and featured on the Opry. As for the main instrument in his music, the fiddle, when he formed his first band he wanted fiddlers who were equally adept at presenting and backing up a song as performin old time fiddle tunes (curiously, Chubby Wise never recorded that kind of material with Monroe, and Howdy Forrester never recorded as a BG boy.

    I had my BG period, 50 years ago, and I could play some of the war horses at speed, but I got fed up with the stuff, and with the stolid 160 bpm 2/2. In many cases speed is achieved at the cost of melodic and rhythmic interest. Take a standard performance of Raw Hide; mandolin with lots of repeated notes, fiddle in songlike half time followed by a shuffling passage, and bass in 2/2: root, fifth, root fifth, etc. All right hand and very little melodic invention, very obedient to bar lines and periods, with only a few exceptions like Jerry Douglas and Stuart Duncan.

    I still prefer fiddle tunes like High Level, Briliancy (which I recorded in 1969) and Rutland's Reel, and, of course, tunes like Bye, Bye Blues which offer a lot more possibilities for improvisation.

  29. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to ralph johansson For This Useful Post:


  30. #68
    Fingers of Concrete ccravens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Crockett, TX
    Posts
    1,058

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by tmsweeney View Post
    IMHO Michael Cleveland can play as fast as he wants anywhere he wants, would you want to see Hussain Bolt walk ?
    The analogy doesn't work for me. If Mr. Bolt is racing against a bunch of elementary kids, then yes, him racing would be rather boring. And not much fun for the kids who were wanting to race each other, I would presume.

    IMO, there is a difference between can and should.
    Chris Cravens

    Girouard A5
    Montana Flatiron A-Jr.
    Passernig Mandola
    Leo Posch D-18

  31. The following members say thank you to ccravens for this post:


  32. #69
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Guildford + Falmouth England
    Posts
    916

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavy View Post
    Haha, sounds about right. There are a lot of ITM tunes that get played so fast that you can no longer tell what the tune is. I'm sure the same is true in other genres as well!
    Irish music pub sessions, f'rinstance. I've noticed the culprits of 'playing too fast to be musical' at these events are often not themselves Irish, and usually under 30 - it's a bit like 'tonight we play to kill'. There seems to be a different thing going in playing for dancing. Scottish ceilidh dancing used to be at a reasonable speed, until maybe 20 years ago some young 'uns decided it's cool, and the bands responded by playing faster. Now they often play to suit their audience, which works great. Years ago I played with a Scottish band at the Sandhurst military academy (UK) coming out ball. The pianist and 2nd accordionist conspired to push the tempo till it was flying, but there was no way we could play fast enough to wear those guys out, so we gave up - at which point they shouted 'faster!'.

  33. #70

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by ccravens View Post
    The analogy doesn't work for me. If Mr. Bolt is racing against a bunch of elementary kids, then yes, him racing would be rather boring. And not much fun for the kids who were wanting to race each other, I would presume.

    IMO, there is a difference between can and should.
    Exactly the point. Like having track day with the Miata club and Michael Schumacher shows up in his qualifying Ferrari. Cool to see for a few minutes but not the reason you showed up for the day.
    Gunga......Gunga.....Gu-Lunga

  34. #71
    Registered User lowtone2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    lower alabama
    Posts
    893

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Fast tempos are a feature of bluegrass. No, not every tune.

    Bluegrass was never dance music, and yes Bill Monroe but together and directed the first Bluegrass Band.

    The internet is full of people complaining that musicians with too much technical ability lack feeling. All genres.

    If you can’t hear emotional content in a song or style, don’t assume that no one else can.

  35. #72
    Registered User lowtone2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    lower alabama
    Posts
    893

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    And one more thing while I’m ranting...if Michael Cleveland shows up at a jam (oh, please?) and I can’t play time behind him, I will put up the instrument but I am not going anywhere.

  36. #73
    Stop the chop!
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    europe
    Posts
    1,698
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Gies View Post
    I guess all of us amateurs just want to play like Bill. I know I do but it is an elusive goal.

    Your guess is wrong.

  37. #74
    Stop the chop!
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    europe
    Posts
    1,698
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtone2 View Post
    Fast tempos are a feature of bluegrass. No, not every tune.

    The internet is full of people complaining that musicians with too much technical ability lack feeling. All genres.
    Speed is not synonymous with technical ability. Bill Monroe had limited technique (and limited whatever technique he had by using very high action)
    but, e.g., Raw Hide is very fast, at > 160 bpm (in 2/2)

  38. #75
    Registered User lowtone2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    lower alabama
    Posts
    893

    Default Re: Speed of bluegrass... is it just me?

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    Speed is not synonymous with technical ability. Bill Monroe had limited technique (and limited whatever technique he had by using very high action)
    but, e.g., Raw Hide is very fast, at > 160 bpm (in 2/2)
    If you think Bill Monroe had limited, as in not very much, technical ability, I doubt that you have studied and played Bill Monroe. Speed is one technical aspect, there are others.

  39. The following members say thank you to lowtone2 for this post:


Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •