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Thread: Kelley A-V-5 advice needed

  1. #1

    Question Kelley A-V-5 advice needed

    Hi Café Friends,
    I’m seeking some feedback and advice on an issue I’m having with a 2019 Kelley A-V-5 mandolin, a beautiful looking instrument. I sold it to a wonderful person in Massachusetts, and when it arrived we were both heartbroken to see that the neck had dislodged completely from the body. It was packed very securely, sitting tightly in its case, with bubble wrap around the case and foam lining in the heavy duty shipping box labelled FRAGILE that MandoMutt used when they sent it to me.

    The thing is that I have had many instruments shipped to me in Australia, and I’ve shipped many instruments back to the US, and this is the first time this has ever happened. As you can see from the photos, and confirmed by Skip Kelley, “the joint is a V joint, similar to a violin, only much deeper and LOCKED in place by drilling from the back, into the neck block and neck, and then, gluing in dowels.” If it was indeed “locked in place”, how could the neck dislodge during shipping, even if dropped during transit?

    I’d appreciate any insights, knowledge and experience about what might have caused the neck to dislodge from the body. Do you have experience with the strength of a V Joint, glued in place with dowels? Are there more sturdy joints used in A model mandolins? What should I be telling UPS in my claim with them? Even though I’m the 2nd owner, is there an potential warranty? Really appreciate the community’s input on this situation.

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  2. #2
    Registered User j. condino's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kelley A-V-5 advice needed

    www.condino.com

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  4. #3
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Kelley A-V-5 advice needed

    Many things could have happened before or during transit.... from just heavy vibration to dropped box or rapid changes in humidity/temperature, but the neck joint could have been slightly loose before that.
    You are lucky that it is clean release without broken wood. Take it to competent luthier who can set correct angle of neck and have it reglued. Simple cleaning of old glue (keeping the dowels in place) and then regluing the neck back in correct alignment. It would cost less than any argument with shipper or seller.
    Adrian

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  6. #4
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    Default Re: Kelley A-V-5 advice needed

    I would contact the luthier who built it as he would know better than anyone. I believe Skip Kelley is a member here.
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  7. #5
    Registered User Tom C's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kelley A-V-5 advice needed

    Nice looking mando though.

  8. #6

    Default Re: Kelley A-V-5 advice needed

    Thanks, Adrian. I'm confident that the box was dropped during transit, and there would have been some temperature change. Thankfully, the shipment only took a few days, which is amazing during this pandemic. And yes, we're lucky that the dis-lodgement was rather clean. But the competent luthier doing the repair is not going to be regluing the neck. The dowels are not strong enough to maintain the integrity of the joint. On reflection, I think it may begun moving before it was shipped; I communicated with MandoMutt about some buzzing when it arrived, but they claimed it was due to the journey. They may be right, but looking at the current issue, perhaps for the wrong reason. Really appreciate your response.

  9. #7

    Default Re: Kelley A-V-5 advice needed

    Totally agree...it's gorgeous, and it did sound good. I really like that violin-style, which makes this whole situation heartbreaking.

  10. #8
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: Kelley A-V-5 advice needed

    Quote Originally Posted by zackwest View Post
    Thanks, Adrian. I'm confident that the box was dropped during transit, and there would have been some temperature change. Thankfully, the shipment only took a few days, which is amazing during this pandemic. And yes, we're lucky that the dis-lodgement was rather clean. But the competent luthier doing the repair is not going to be regluing the neck. The dowels are not strong enough to maintain the integrity of the joint. On reflection, I think it may begun moving before it was shipped; I communicated with MandoMutt about some buzzing when it arrived, but they claimed it was due to the journey. They may be right, but looking at the current issue, perhaps for the wrong reason. Really appreciate your response.
    I don't understand reasoning of the luthier. The dowels are not really there to maintain integrity of the joint. They lock the joint just in direction of leverage caused by string tension. Think of rotating the neck inserted into the body, the dowels are just barriers. I see that these dowels are way too far back to act properly as they should (one appears to slightly "catch" the neck while the other not so much) But still this deep jont should hold well with just clean gluing surfaces with good contact and good glue.
    I would probably remove the dowels from the joint and fit wood into the voids of neck so the neck fitting would be simple and straightforward. Most important would be adding thin wood shims if needed (no glue filling of gaps allowed here) and fitting it air tight especially the bottom to the back plate. I see 1-2 hours of work for putting the neck to body depending on how well the parts fit now.
    In case like this when there is no break of wood I would suppose possibly weak glue or joint weakened by humidity/ dryness/ heat cycles. The direction of grain in the neck and neck block is very different and there is nothing to hold it together if the neck dries out too much. Just the bottom of the heel... and once that receives a blow the neck takes part...
    Adrian

  11. #9
    Registered User j. condino's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kelley A-V-5 advice needed

    I don't see this as an issue with the original builder. Mortice and tenon joints like this have been used for hundreds of years without any dowels. It is a well proven and tested design.

    It was shipped 11,000 miles with the strings under tension during the winter of the most busy holiday shipping season in history where every single shipper in existence experienced unbelievable record levels that overwhelmed all systems.

    Skip is an A+ person and solid builder who stands by his product. 'Pretty sure he has already reached out the the original poster of this thread and he is likely watching everything typed here.

    $#!t happens. Get it glued back together and move on....
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  13. #10

    Default More photos

    Perhaps these close up photos would help to understand better the situation.Click image for larger version. 

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  14. #11

    Default Re: Kelley A-V-5 advice needed

    Thanks for the reply. I agree completely with you that a mortice and tenon joint would be strong, and that this was by far the busiest holiday shipping season on record. Unfortunately Skip did not use this joint. And the strings were loosened in transit to reduce tension. Hence my reaching out for some clarity and advice.

  15. #12
    Mandolin & Mandola maker
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    Default Re: Kelley A-V-5 advice needed

    I'm with James on this. It dos not look like a difficult repair. Get it glued back together and start enjoying it. Don't stress out too much, crap happens sometimes.
    Peter Coombe - mandolins, mandolas and guitars
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  16. #13
    Purveyor of Sunshine sgarrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kelley A-V-5 advice needed

    I'd say you're fairly lucky. This mandolin most likely got hot and then was dropped or hit fairly hard. The heat loosened the glue enough that the joint gave way. If the joint had held, you might be looking at a cracked or broken neck. I understand it's frustrating and aggravating but it's a fairly simple repair.

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  18. #14
    Registered User j. condino's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kelley A-V-5 advice needed

    OK, good the string tension was released. 'My mistake.

    But- this IS a mortise and tenon. It also has a Siminoff vestigial dowel pair, but at its heart, there is no denying it is a mortise and tenon. It is not a dovetail. It is not a butt joint. it is not a bolted system. It is a mortise and tenon. 30%of the working strength is in the heel button, 30% on each of the sides, and then roughly 4-8% on the end grain, if everything goes well.

    Excellent point Shaun!

    Faaaarrrrrrrrrrr better to have the joint release than fracture the neck. Almost all violin family instruments are designed with intent, the same reasoning that they use very weak hide glue on the top and back plates- better to blow a seam than to have the wood fracture.....

    Things happen. I'd still stand by Skip and would be happy having him build me a mandolin. Why are you not having the conversation with him rather than arguing with a bunch of internet wankers?
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  20. #15
    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: More photos

    Quote Originally Posted by zackwest View Post
    Perhaps these close up photos would help to understand better the situation.Click image for larger version. 

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    Not to diminish Skip's talent as a builder, I find the #2 pic a little telling. It looks like he did not have a perfect fit, hence the dark wood "shim" that I am seeing. As James pointed out, these are more of a mortise and tenon joint than a true dove tail so a perfect fit is essential. If one has a perfect fit, esp to the button, the joint should hold up for the life of the instrument.
    Last edited by Charles E.; Jan-22-2021 at 7:41pm.
    Charley

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  21. #16
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    Default Re: Kelley A-V-5 advice needed

    The “traditional” compound dovetail joint is the king of all neck joints for good reason. Yes, it is much more difficult to fit in the first place than other methods, but when done well, it self-locks and is structurally stable even without glue. Yes, it does need glue to hold it in place against stress of temperature and humidity changes, but it does not get its strength from the glue. The strength is from its superior structural integrity. Also, it is much easier to remove the neck for a reset with a compound dovetail. Just steam it and lift it out.

    The mortise and tenon is not nearly as strong. It depends on the glue for at least part of its strength. And it has insufficient strength on its own to withstand the forces working on it, so it must be reinforced somehow. On less expensive instruments Weber uses a straight mortise and tenon, glued and reinforced with two metal bolts. Super stable! Martin uses a v-shaped mortise and tenon on its less expensive instruments, glued and reinforced with a single wood screw. I’m not as impressed with that but have never had a problem with mine. And the Siminoff style uses the dual dowels. I never really understood that one. You have to remove so much wood to insert the dowels. Seems like any strength you gain would be lost because of wood removal. The v shape in only one direction helps prevent side to side and twisting motion but does nothing for upward stress from string tension. I can’t see how the dowels would prevent that.

    I am aware that probably thousands of owners of instruments with Siminoff neck joints probably never had a problem and they stood up just fine. It’s obvious this mandolin was subjected to stresses far beyond what any neck joint should be forced to endure. That said, there were obvious flaws in the execution here. As noted above, shims were used to fill gaps. In addition to that, I see patches of wood with no glue so complete coverage was not achieved. And the hole for one of the dowels was drilled way too deep, unnecessarily removing original wood.

    I am always amazed at how many thousands of instruments make it to their destinations in Chinese shipping containers without this happening.
    Don

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  22. #17

    Default Re: Kelley A-V-5 advice needed

    Again, thank you all for your comments and advice. I really appreciate the very helpful comments so far. It might be helpful to understand the dilemma I’m in and why I’m asking for feedback. As the seller of this mandolin, I feel duty bound to do the right thing for the seller, and restoring the instrument in to its best condition is the right way to go, no matter the cost to me. Fortunately, the buyer is incredibly understanding and patient...another excellent Cafe connection.

    So, if the instrument was damaged because of poor handling by the shipper, then they are liable to pay for the repair; I'm waiting on the results of their investigation and hope they do the right thing. But if there is a structural or design fault that significantly contributed to the damage, then the claim may be refused, and I need to be prepared for that. And if the builder is not accepting responsibility for such a fault, which is currently the case, then I am not only responsible for making things right, but also responsible for paying for the repair, which I am doing now.

    There also seems to be a difference of opinion about the extent of the repair, the simplicity or complexity in doing it right, and the cost. Here’s a breakdown of the suggested work to be done, outlined by a well-respected luthier/repair person; in my inexperienced view (but with an engineering background) this does not seem to be a simple or quick effort, and the repair estimate is substantial:

    • Neck was glued with Hide glue in a Violin style V-joint & pinned with 2 Dowels either side

    • The neck was completely severed from the body damaging the integrity of the joints

    • Remove all old glue from both the Male and female (Neck & Body) of the joint.

    • Remove the Back of the Mandolin to access the pins on the bottom side of the joint

    • Remove old pins from the joint and reconstruct the body joint without the pins

    • Reconstruct the Neck joint to receive new pins when gluing is complete

    • Reglue the neck to the body without the pins with hide glue

    • Drill two new holes either side of the V in the correct place & glue in two new pins

    • This will lock the Joint and keep it from coming lose under string tension.

    • Clean old glue and prep the Back to be glued back in the correct place to lock the V-Joint.

    • Clean up all excess Glue & touch up finish where need be from the removal

    • String the instrument and adjust the action and playability of the Mandolin

    I've had at least a dozen instruments, mandolins and guitars, going in both directions in the past 3 years, and this is the first one damaged. With little experience in this, I reached out to the community for advice, and frankly am very impressed by the sober replies, so thanks to everyone. Whatever the outcome, I am grateful both to Scott for creating this website and community, and to all of you.

  23. #18

    Default Re: Kelley A-V-5 advice needed

    Looking at the pictures, it clearly got hot. As the OP knows, it's hot right now in Australia!

    It is irrelevant what glue joint was used. If it got this hot, it was going to fail, if not in the case during shipping, then when it got to Massachusetts! Possibly later when there was no recourse to even discuss it with the shipping insurance claim as a possibility.
    It could well have even looked OK when it got there, but with a terrible re-fused mess of a neck joint, which is common enough to see and much more of an annoyance to clean up and put back together than this.

  24. #19
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kelley A-V-5 advice needed

    If you have a question for the builder regarding the warranty then perhaps it might be best to take that up with him or perhaps the person you bought it from. There's no reason for this to continue as that one line puts this in dangerous territory regarding the posting guidelines.
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