Do great looking mandolins have to sound better?

[JeffD]

So here's something I just thought of - has mandolin development largely been driven by bluegrass and country players?

Mandolin development where, when? Most of the mandolin development was before bluegrass. Way before bluegrass. The iconic F-5 design evolved before bluegrass, and was primarily envisioned for classical. Bill Monroe played what was at hand.

My impression is that the "big emulation" came about in this country during I am guessing 60s and 70s, when Gibson could not be relied upon to produce an exceptional mandolin. Many makers chasing the Gibson 1923 F-5 sound that Bill Monroe made famous, cuz, well, somebody had to make 'em. There are a few history experts on here who will be much more informed than I can be.

All that said, folks even today, world wide, I believe bluegrass is a minority genre among mandolin and mandolinny instruments.

In this country mandolin is more often seen in a bluegrass context. That doesn't say much, as bluegrass is such a small part of the musical pie, and most people outside the bluegrass bubble identify the banjo as the iconic bluegrass instrument, and when you say mandolin, they picture a bowlback.

[Dagger Gordon]

Classical mandolinists seem generally content with basically the same bowl-back designs as were made in the late 19th century.

Nowadays several Israeli mainly classical musicians play instruments made by the Israeli builder Arik Kerman, which are quite different in design and appearance.

https://www.jacobreuven.com/kerman-mandolin-collection

[JeffD]

Nowadays several Israeli mainly classical musicians play instruments made by the Israeli builder Arik Kerman, which are quite different in design and appearance.

Yes. Good point.

I sometimes think the Kerman is the latest great step forward in mando-evolution, and it is inspired by the exactitudes and tonal expectations of the mandolin in classical music.

[sblock]

Mandolin development where, when? Most of the mandolin development was before bluegrass. Way before bluegrass. The iconic F-5 design evolved before bluegrass, and was primarily envisioned for classical. Bill Monroe played what was at hand.

My impression is that the "big emulation" came about in this country during I am guessing 60s and 70s, when Gibson could not be relied upon to produce an exceptional mandolin. Many makers chasing the Gibson 1923 F-5 sound that Bill Monroe made famous, cuz, well, somebody had to make 'em. There are a few history experts on here who will be much more informed than I can be.

All that said, folks even today, world wide, I believe bluegrass is a minority genre among mandolin and mandolinny instruments.

In this country mandolin is more often seen in a bluegrass context. That doesn't say much, as bluegrass is such a small part of the musical pie, and most people outside the bluegrass bubble identify the banjo as the iconic bluegrass instrument, and when you say mandolin, they picture a bowlback.

There are some fairly provocative, but unsupported, arguments that you make, here. I'm not so sure they're correct, however.

You claim that "bluegrass is a minority genre among mandolin and mandolinny instruments" and that "bluegrass is such a small part of the musical pie" in the mandolin world. I guess I have to disagree.

I think you may be seriously underestimating the social and financial influence that the Folk Music Revival, beginning in the late 1950's, and the concomitant rise of Bluegrass music, beginning in the late 1940's -- and continuing to this day -- have had on the mandolin world.

By most historical accounts, the mandolin was a popular parlor instrument at the turn of the 19th century, up through the Roaring '20s. There were lots of mandolin ensembles and orchestras, and plenty of sheet music published for the mandolin. But the popularity of the mandolin began to wane at the dawn of the Jazz Age, and sales of new mandolins had already started to decline by the time that Lloyd Loar came out with Gibson F5 model in 1922. After that, mandolins very nearly vanished into obscurity. Mandolin sales at Gibson, Lyon and Healy, Martin, and elsewhere all plummeted. In fact, some brands disappeared altogether.

The rise of bluegrass, begun by Bill Monroe, changed that, as we all know. I would wager you that the vast majority of new mandolin sales in the U.S. during the 1960's, right up through the end of the 20th century, were directly related to bluegrass music, or to closely related forms of folk/oldtime/Americana music. And not to classical music. Not to jazz. Not to blues. Not to Irish/Scottish/Gaelic traditional music. Not to rock and roll. And not to Neopolitan/Italian music, either.

I suspect that you may be overestimating the size of the European market for mandolins (which may be driven by classical/Neopolitan/ITM music) and underestimating the size of the U.S. market (which is still mostly driven by bluegrass and oldtime/Americana). More mandolins get sold in the U.S. than anywhere else, and it's not even close. There's is a new Asian market that is slowly picking up, but it's not there yet.

Today, there are vastly more flatback mandolins being produced than bowlbacks or other designs. There are vastly more mandolin sales in the U.S. than in the rest of the world, combined. And what genre of music do most U.S. mandolinists play? Why, bluegrass/folk/oldtime/country! I don't think it's true that "bluegrass is a minority genre among mandolin and mandolinny instruments." For now, it remains a majority genre among players in the U.S. And numerically, worldwide, these players outnumber the players in Europe and elsewhere. It's also true that there are many more players of folk music than players of classical music.

In support of all this, you can look at the various places where mandolins are featured in the recording industry. Most of the recorded instruments are not bowlbacks: they are F5 (or A5) mandolins. In fact, the majority of the most renowned players of the mandolin today happen to have bluegrass musical roots, even if they play "modern" music, like Chris Thile, Mike Marshall, Sam Bush, David Grisman, and so on. Yes, there are certainly exceptions to this, and there are some truly great classical players out there, like Ari Avital (I own many of his CDs). But my point is that MOST of the mandolins that we hear in recordings are musically "close" to bluegrass roots -- and the same goes for the most popular players.

So if many of the most successful players tend to come out of bluegrass roots, and most of the current sales of recordings of mandolin music also relate (directly or indirectly) to bluegrass/newgrass music, and most of the instrument sales, worldwide, are related to bluegrass, then one ought not discount its influence.

And before I forget: Asian companies like Eastman, The Loar, Kentucky, and the like keep churning out budget F5 and A5 instruments for the market because of the influence of bluegrass. Their sales of bowlbacks and flatbacks are negligible. Higher-end companies, like Northfield, Collings, and Weber are no different in that regard. Or Gibson itself.

[Bob Clark]

. . .Today, there are vastly more flatback mandolins being produced than bowlbacks or other designs. . . .

Asian companies like Eastman, The Loar, Kentucky, and the like keep churning out budget F5 and A5 instruments for the market because of the influence of bluegrass. Their sales of bowlbacks and flatbacks are negligible. Higher-end companies, like Northfield, Collings, and Weber are no different in that regard. Or Gibson itself.

Did you mean A5/F5 in the first instance, rather than flatbacks?

[sblock]

Did you mean A5/F5 in the first instance, rather than flatbacks?

Sorry, I mistyped! I meant to write: "Today, there are vastly more carved back [NOT "flatback"] mandolins being produced than bowlbacks or other designs."

Many thanks for catching that. Also, I meant to write that "Asian companies like Eastman, The Loar, Kentucky, and the like keep churning out budget F5 and A5 instruments for the market because of the influence of bluegrass. Their sales of bowlbacks and flattops are negligible."

I apologize for these goofs. Hopefully, folks knew what I meant. And if not, this correction should clarify that.

[steve in tampa]

A mandolin as a piece of art is a beautiful thing, eclipsed only by the art that one can make with it.

[maxr]

A mandolin as a piece of art is a beautiful thing, eclipsed only by the art that one can make with it.

Yes...but, coming at this thing as a fiddler, just how did the F style mandolin design evolve? The bottom hook, headstock and the top bout curl are (begging all your worships' pardons who play and make them so well), as surreal a piece of musical instrument design as the West has ever devised. The A style has form following function to a large extent, with practical and body-fitting body dimensions starting with string length are adapted to a pleasing form. Can you think of another acoustic instrument where you take an established functional form (the A style), and add decorative pieces outside the body cavity that neither perform an obvious musical function nor relate directly to the playing culture (like Classical style legs on a piano)? The bowed string scroll is an example of unneccessary decoration, where acoustically a similar weight and density piece of wood might do the same job, but wouldn't look as good. But where are those bits on the F style coming from? I'm not being critical - I like it, but looked at objectively it is very strange, especially when upscaled to a mandola or whatever.

[sunburst]

Yes...but, coming at this thing as a fiddler, just how did the F style mandolin design evolve? The bottom hook, headstock and the top bout curl are (begging all your worships' pardons who play and make them so well), as surreal a piece of musical instrument design as the West has ever devised...

Orville Gibson, it's been said, had a "bizarre" sense of aesthetic. He developed the carved arched mandolin in the Victorian era when designs tended to be... how shall we say... voluptuously ornamented. He applied that to his mandolin designs and it just sort of stuck.
I've always been struck by the look of a Bluegrass band playing the traditional instruments of the genre. It particular the contrast between the guitar and the mandolin. I can imagine the reaction of some Bluegrass guitar players to a guitar with points and scrolls. "No part of nuthin'!" comes to mind, yet just try to get the majority of Bluegrass mandolin players to play anything other a 'curlicue' mandolin. Tradition is a strong motivator.

Mostly, it boils down to:
Gibson's highest priced mandolins had points and scrolls, so the design is associated with 'the best'. Bill Monroe used such a mandolin to arguably originate Bluegrass music. Without those things, perhaps more mandolins would look more "normal".

[maxr]

It's interesting that bluegrass is one of the world's great 'working man's' musics, yet it has one of the most ornate instruments around. I just found the Folkfriends Octave Mandola, from a great folk instrument shop in Germany - this thing wouldn't be out of place in an exotic rock band:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4TSedcoG30

[Q: Hey guys, how do I insert a YouTube clip link so the vid shows in the post rather than just the link?]

[JeffD]

What I meant was, if you look at what music people listen to, say in this country, most people do not listen to bluegrass. The overwhelming majority do not. Going down the street talking to people or at the diner or bus stop, you would have a lot of trouble finding people who know who Bill Monroe was. Or know what a mandolin is. There are places in the country where bluegrass is huge, but not Ed Sheeran huge. Not Billy Eilish huge, not Arian Grande huge. From a cultural perspective, listing the most popular music, bluegrass does not make the list.

Last I heard there weren't as many as 20 million bluegrass fans in the US. Taylor Swift has something like 125 million instagram followers.

Then if you look at those who play music. The overwhelming majority of folks in this country don't. And those that do, the biggies after we filter out high school band, are piano, and guitar. So within that minority that play music there is tiny a subset that play mandolin. How many of those mandolinners are bluegrass. I am not sure, and I bet it varies with geography. Maybe half? Maybe a little more. Maybe a little less. It is hard to tell. Most of the mandolinners I have met, in any capacity at all, have not been bluegrassers.

While bluegrass and related is quite a thing overseas, that doesn't mean its quite a thing. I do not believe at all that world wide most current sales of recorded mandolin music is related to bluegrass, or that most mandolin sales worldwide are related to bluegrass.

We are going to have to agree to disagree I suppose. My own experience is that most folk music fans in this country are not bluegrass fans. Far far more are singer songwriter fans and a sizeable number of the general folk music fandom, IMO, if it comes up at all, seem to tolerate bluegrass, much less embrace it.

And as was pointed out, the latest major developments in mandolin designs are coming from the classical world.

[Dagger Gordon]

Most of the mandolinners I have met, in any capacity at all, have not been bluegrassers.


My own experience is that most folk music fans in this country are not bluegrass fans. Far far more are singer songwriter fans and a sizeable number of the general folk music fandom, IMO, if it comes up at all, seem to tolerate bluegrass, much less embrace it..

That is also closer to my own experiences in America. I have come across quite a few people who have a mandolin which they can play a little, who are guitarists, but while they like to play their acoustic guitars they tend not to be very folk music oriented. Typically more like CSNY or something like that. And they rarely know anything about different styles of mandolin like F or A. And frankly they don't worry about that.

[Bob Clark]

My own experience is that most folk music fans in this country are not bluegrass fans. Far far more are singer songwriter fans and a sizeable number of the general folk music fandom, IMO, if it comes up at all, seem to tolerate bluegrass, much less embrace it.

This matches my experience, even living outside a very small town that hosts a huge annual Bluegrass festival. I have never even heard Bluegrass played at an open mic night, and I have attended lots of them. I also think, as much as some of us like it, it may be an acquired taste.

And Dagger's quote "And they rarely know anything about different styles of mandolin like F or A. And frankly they don't worry about that." matches my experience as well.

[JeffD]

Yes...but, coming at this thing as a fiddler, just how did the F style mandolin design evolve?

You have to remember the time frame these were developed. Check up on Art Nouveau and such like art movements. Lots of extraneous curly bits in furniture, jewelry, designed objects, between 1890s through to the 30s. Art historians please help me, i am drowning. It was the times. Check out the guitars that Gibson made around that time too.

You are right, nobody would design like that today, but for tradition. If Bill Monroe had picked up an A style, I suspect the F style body would gradually have died out. Who knows really. I cannot imagine, but for Bill Monroe, why anyone would prefer an F style. There are so many other more beautiful styles IMO. (My favorite being the asymmetrical two point style.)

[JeffD]

I rather enjoy being in a bubble, actually, where we go on and on about our artistic preferences and what not, in this tiny corner of the world where mandolin seems frightfully important. But I have to be careful stepping outside into the general musical world, and outside that into the general world itself.

As my nephew once asked me: Uncle Jeff, why do you play the mandolin? Isn't that something musicians do?"

[Caleb]

I rather enjoy being in a bubble, actually, where we go on and on about our artistic preferences and what not, in this tiny corner of the world where mandolin seems frightfully important. But I have to be careful stepping outside into the general musical world, and outside that into the general world itself.

As my nephew once asked me: Uncle Jeff, why do you play the mandolin? Isn't that something musicians do?"

I relate. Sometimes it dawns on me that I know and have known hardly anyone (in real life) who likes and is interested in the same things that I am. Tough at first but you get used to it after a while. Hardly anyone I’ve ever met even knows what a mandolin is. The strangest part is that when you show them one, they still don’t know what it is.

[maxr]

Hardly anyone I’ve ever met even knows what a mandolin is. The strangest part is that when you show them one, they still don’t know what it is.

You should try playing the nyckelharpa, or try explaining WHY it is