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Thread: Can you tell about this mandolin please?

  1. #1

    Default Can you tell about this mandolin please?

    My father in law has been left this mandolin - I have googled and haven't been able to find one exactly the same. The Gibson logo seems to be at an angle on the others I've seen. I have attached a pic of the serial number - does anyone know how old it is, exactly which model it is - and most importantly to my father in law....how much is it worth?
    Thanks in advance
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Can you tell about this mandolin please?

    Based on the limited information in your photographs, it looks to be a model A1 from 1927 - perhaps someone else can confirm that Gibson were still producing this snakehead model in 1927?

    It would help if you could let us know the, so called, Factory Order Number which you will find stamped inside up near the neck block. More detailed photographs would be a help; especially one of the back of the headstock showing the tuners. The tuners seem to be “worm under” whereas the change from worm under to worm over is generally thought to have taken place before 1927. The logo on the head could well have been added later. Many were simply a silk screened logo during this period.

    The thing to bear in mind is that during this period, there were many exceptions to the rules.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Can you tell about this mandolin please?

    The number appears to be in the 80,000 range making the instrument probably a 1924 build. It does appear to have worm under tuners- and these would probably be Waverly "arrowhead" style. Obviously, more photos would help. Here is one in the same general number range- it has "worm over" tuners and they are the later oblong plate Waverly type.

    http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/80232

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Can you tell about this mandolin please?

    That is a Gibson A-1 mandolin. The serial number 80397 indicates that the instrument was shipped in late 1926. My reference for fixing the date is "Spann's Guide to Gibson."
    It has the angular "snakehead" peghead shape, which was only available for a few years, and is considered to be desirable by collectors.

    The value is largely dependent upon the condition and originality of the instrument, especially the condition of the finish. Currently, there seems to be a lot of variation in the prices of these instruments. Without more pictures, I would give a very rough estimate of $2500, plus or minus several hundred dollars, depending on the condition of the instrument and who is trying to sell it. These instruments will probably bring more when consigned by major dealers who specialize in vintage instruments than they will when offered for sale by private sellers or hole-in-the-wall music shops.

    During this period, Gibson assigned serial numbers to their instruments when they were shipped, rather than when they were assembled. Mandolin sales were slow at that time, and it is possible that the instrument was built a couple of years earlier.

  5. #5
    Registered User Tom C's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you tell about this mandolin please?

    Nice mando. Most of us get left with crappy bowl back mandos.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Can you tell about this mandolin please?

    Thank you - I had no idea there was a number near the neck block....it's hard to see but I think it's 3623
    Thanks for the prompt replies guys, here are some more pics
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    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you tell about this mandolin please?

    Factory order numbers from 1923 to early 1925 have 5 digits and begin with 11. In 1925 a new series of factory order numbers begins; they are 4 digits starting with 8. The number 8623 is listed as a factory order number for a tenor banjo from 1927.

    The number 3623 would have been used in 1916, but that is several years before snakehead mandolins were built.

    Most likely the factory order number on this one is 8023, putting the build date at early 1925. The stamped numbers can be tricky to read.
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  9. #8
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you tell about this mandolin please?

    I don't see major problems or missing parts. There is heavy fretboard wear and may be a small crack near the tailpiece, and the pickguard is pulling away slightly from the neck.

    An original (or, at least, period-correct) hardshell case can give the value a modest boost. This instrument should be checked by a luthier for open seams, loose braces, prior repairs, etc., and set up with new strings.
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  10. #9

    Default Re: Can you tell about this mandolin please?

    It does have worm over tuners- the same as the one I posted up- the oblong plates. The mandolin was probably made then kept in store and sold as suggested by the FON number in 1926- which is probably when the fittings like the tuners were added. I think the FON number must be different to 3623 as that relates to 1916- it probably begins with an 8 and the second digit may not be a 6.

    Edit: I wrote the post and pored over the book for a few minutes trying to work out the correct FON- so when I posted it, that conundrum had been cracked, it seems!

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    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you tell about this mandolin please?

    Quote Originally Posted by NickR View Post
    Edit: I wrote the post and pored over the book for a few minutes trying to work out the correct FON- so when I posted it, that conundrum had been cracked, it seems!
    Well, we are thinking along the same lines. There is frequently some amount of guesswork involved in these discussions.

    For a number of reasons, the mandolin's popularity started to fade in the mid-1920s, and the Gibson factory was left with a lot of mandolins that weren't selling as fast as they used to ... which is why a mandolin built in 1924 or 1925 might not be shipped until a year or two later.

    Recent events have me wondering how the 1918 flu pandemic affected all the mandolin orchestras and clubs where these instruments were being played. My orchestra is assembling group recordings from individual home videos, and hosting virtual open mics every couple of months ... but neither option was available a hundred years ago.
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    Default Re: Can you tell about this mandolin please?

    For the avoidance of doubt, if you enlarge the photograph, I see the serial number as 81397 which, according to Spann’s guide, places it’s shipping date firmly in 1927 (at first sight, I also thought 80.... ). Glad to see it does have the worm over tuners!

    I wouldn’t worry about the pickguard pulling awayfrom the neck - they’re only nailed on anyway but I would question the originality of the pickguard clamp (to the body). Side photo? Nobody has asked whether you have the original case which can also have an impact on value.

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    Default Re: Can you tell about this mandolin please?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray(T) View Post
    For the avoidance of doubt, if you enlarge the photograph, I see the serial number as 81397 which, according to Spann’s guide, places it’s shipping date firmly in 1927
    Yes, and that better matches what I remember about the headstock logo alignment; I thought to myself that 1926 was awfully early to have a straight-across logo. What looks like a 0 on the label is actually a stain left by a drop of liquid, be it water, coffee or tequila.
    I wouldn’t worry about the pickguard pulling away from the neck - they’re only nailed on anyway
    Once it starts to pull away, it will keep pulling away more and more, and getting it reseated correctly can be a delicate operation. The nail might be loose and might need a little help to stay in place, and that situation is best addressed with a gentle hand and some experience. It's one of the things a luthier should look at.
    but I would question the originality of the pickguard clamp (to the body).
    Several different bracket types were used over the years, but there should still be a cam clamp with the July 4, 1911 patent date. If instead there's an attachment that's screwed into the side, then yes, it may not be original.
    Last edited by mrmando; Jan-26-2021 at 5:05pm.
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  15. #13

    Default Re: Can you tell about this mandolin please?

    Thanks for all the info guys, it's very cool of you all to take the trouble to write and enlighten me
    The scratch board is screwed on - but I can't see a crack near the tailpiece...it seems superficial to a non expert. Here's a pic of the case, am guessing it's not original? And while I'm here, my wife's grandad also left this other mandolin....to my ears it sounds even better than the Gibson - anybody know much about this one?
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  16. #14
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you tell about this mandolin please?

    How does the Gibson fit in that case? Looks like it would be somewhat loose around the body.

    I think it is a 1920s case, but it's for a banjo mandolin, and the exterior appears to have been re-covered in what looks like brown naugahyde sometime in the past century. The original exterior would have been black fabric. So, it might be of interest to someone with a vintage banjo mandolin who needs a case, even a refurbished one, but doesn't add significantly to the value of the A1.

    Or my eyes may be playing tricks on me. Photos below of a mandolin case and a mandolin banjo case.

    There are bowlback experts on the Cafe who can tell you more about the Ceccherini mandolin. That name is well known even if it's not one of the top-tier makers from Naples. It appears to be a lower-midrange instrument, maybe a step up from "student" grade, in very good condition.

    Perhaps rcc56 can enlighten us on when exactly the 1911 cam clamps fell out of use and Gibson started using Loar-style screw-on pickguard attachments on all mandolins.

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    Last edited by mrmando; Jan-26-2021 at 7:11pm.
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    Default Re: Can you tell about this mandolin please?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmando View Post

    Perhaps rcc56 can enlighten us on when exactly the 1911 cam clamps fell out of use and Gibson started using Loar-style screw-on pickguard attachments on all mandolins.
    Like many other of the design changes that occurred at Gibson in that early period, the phasing out of the cam-style pickguard clamp in favor of the screw-in bracket was gradual. While most mandolins appear to have the screw-in clamp early in the '20's, the transition was not complete until the end of 1926.

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    Default Re: Can you tell about this mandolin please?

    Your second mandolin is a bowlback mandolin, apparently made in Italy. There are very few of them that have any real value. I'll let our resident bowlback extperts pronounce the value but the Gibson snakehead is most likely the more valuable of the two.

    Could you post a picture of the Gibson in the case? That should answer any questions regarding the size of that case. It does look like a banjo mandolin case.
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    Default Re: Can you tell about this mandolin please?

    I didn’t mean that it might not have a cam-clamp - we don’t have a photo of this. The end of the rod is usually (always?) fixed to a block of celuloid - same as the pichguard - and the clamp is screwed into this but the one we’re looking at apprars to be some sort of metal.

    It does look like a banjo mandolin case!

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    Default Re: Can you tell about this mandolin please?

    Actually, we can tell from the photo of the back that this doesn't have a cam clamp, because if it did we could see the tab from that clamp along the back treble edge.

    Here is a very similar mandolin that I sold a while back, ser. #82809. Note that it too has a metal bracket at the end of the pickguard support arm, as well as a screw-on attachment in place of the cam clamp. Indeed some of those brackets had celluloid blocks in earlier years, but others don't. I am not an expert on that particular piece of hardware, so telling you which style of bracket was used in which years is a little beyond my pay grade.

    https://reverb.com/item/2208344-gibs...lin-1928-black
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    Default Re: Can you tell about this mandolin please?

    That mandolin could make someone happy forever. It is definitely someone's forever mandolin.
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    Default Re: Can you tell about this mandolin please?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmando View Post
    Actually, we can tell from the photo of the back that this doesn't have a cam clamp, because if it did we could see the tab from that clamp along the back treble edge.

    Here is a very similar mandolin that I sold a while back, ser. #82809. Note that it too has a metal bracket at the end of the pickguard support arm, as well as a screw-on attachment in place of the cam clamp. Indeed some of those brackets had celluloid blocks in earlier years, but others don't. I am not an expert on that particular piece of hardware, so telling you which style of bracket was used in which years is a little beyond my pay grade.

    https://reverb.com/item/2208344-gibs...lin-1928-black
    Missed the photo of the back.

    Neither would I claim to be an expert but my ‘24 A1 has a celuloid block.

    Just in case the o/p is thinking that he’s come across a group of geeks obsessing about irrelevant details, I would point out that (1j the originality of an instrument has a significant effect on its value and (2) the mandolin world is still trying to untangle the various changes made to Gibson mandolins during this period.

  23. #21

    Default Re: Can you tell about this mandolin please?

    Here it is in the case, now you mention it, it is the wrong case.
    One thing I've been considering is giving it a polish, I obviously don't want to damage it. Is there a safe way of doing it?
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  24. #22
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    Default Re: Can you tell about this mandolin please?

    Start with a damp cloth. Can’t remember ever polishing mine - it ruins the patina!

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    Default Re: Can you tell about this mandolin please?

    Quote Originally Posted by 8strung View Post
    Here it is in the case, now you mention it, it is the wrong case.
    One thing I've been considering is giving it a polish, I obviously don't want to damage it. Is there a safe way of doing it?
    That is indeed a banjo mandolin case. As much as you'd like to make it shiny and new looking Ray(T)'s suggestion of a damp, not wringing wet cloth is probably your best bet. No silicone waxes. If you've ever watched Antique Road Show on TV you'll understand why you don't want to do this.
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  26. #24

    Default Re: Can you tell about this mandolin please?

    Those corduroy cases were in vogue just before 1920, it is believed- making the case older than the mandolin but it is clearly for a banjo mandolin. Have a look to see if there is an impressed mark on the base. It is most likely a Bull's Head case- a G & S case of this era would most likely have a rivet in the case pocket lid up to 1921, from memory. It's a shame it is not an A series mandolin case but it is a very nice case none the less.

    I have taken another look at the Mandolin Archive, and A 79645 has the slanted inlays for the words The Gibson while A model 79742 has the horizontal inlays.

  27. #25

    Default Re: Can you tell about this mandolin please?

    I looked at the case but I can't find impressed marks...maybe the covering has made it hard to see. Thanks for telling me the actual model number - it's surprising how complicated it tracking it down, Gibson didn't make it easy.

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