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Thread: speaking of Conch shells

  1. #1

    Default speaking of Conch shells

    Journeybear was discussing conch shell horns in another thread a couple of days ago. These articles came up on my news feed today.


    https://www.newscientist.com/article...000-years-ago/

    https://www.straitstimes.com/world/e...in-17000-years

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    Registered User Sue Rieter's Avatar
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    Default Re: speaking of Conch shells

    I'm interested, but neither link led anywhere useful for me....

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    Default Re: speaking of Conch shells

    They found a very old Conch shell that they have just figured out was a musical instrument for rituals. I heard that today so I am hoping that is what the link was.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

  4. #4

    Default Re: speaking of Conch shells

    Sorry. The page from first link evidently got removed. Here is a different link for the same thing. It is about a 17000 year old conch shell trumpet and has a video with the sound of it being blown. The second link above does go through but displays a pop up ad first you have to x out of.

    http://https://cosmosmagazine.com/hi...h-shell-tones/

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    Default Re: speaking of Conch shells

    Wow! So people actually listen to me, and remember stuff I've said. Ain't that a kick in the head! Better watch myself - me and my big mouth ...

    OK. Well, the second link worked for me. Here's that article:

    Earliest shell horn played for first time in 17,000 years

    The shell was unearthed in 1931 at an archaeological dig near the mouth of the Marsoulas Cave.

    PARIS (AFP) - After more than 17,000 years of silence and decades forgotten in a French museum, a shell fashioned into a horn by our prehistoric ancestors has been played again as a result of new research published on Wednesday (Feb 10).

    Scientists believe the ancient conch, from a species of large sea snail still present in the Atlantic and North Sea, is the oldest wind instrument of its type yet found.

    The shell was unearthed in 1931 at an archaeological dig in the Pyrenees near the mouth of the Marsoulas Cave, whose walls are painted with the artwork of Magdalenian people living there at the end of the last ice age.

    Scientists initially thought it bore no trace of human modification, assuming it was a type of ceremonial drinking cup.

    It was taken to the Museum of Natural History in Toulouse and forgotten.

    But a new examination using modern technology found not only that it had been altered, but that it could still hold a note. Or three, as it turned out.

    Played by a musician, it had tones close to C, C sharp and D. And it boomed at a resounding 100 decibels a metre from the conch.

    "This sound is a link, a direct link with Magdalenian people," said Carole Fritz, lead author of the study and a senior scientist at the French National Centre for Scientific Research.

    She said it was "very important because you have the sea in the cave", adding the shell was from the Atlantic, some 200 kilometres from the cave.

    Instruments older than the conch have been found - flutes whittled from the bones of large birds like swans and eagles - but the researchers said this was the oldest shell horn, symbolising the importance of the ocean to Magdalenian people.

    The study, published in Science Advances, said radio-carbon dating of items at the cave suggest it was occupied around 18,000 years ago.

    "To our knowledge, the Marsoulas shell is unique in the prehistoric context, not only in France but also at the scale of Paleolithic Europe and perhaps the world," the study said.

    One clue to the shell's importance was its markings. Painted red dots the size and shape of fingerprints are similar to those used to depict bison on the cave wall.

    When the shell was discovered in the 1930s, scientists likely assumed its broken tip - leaving a 3.5cm diameter opening - was due to accidental damage, said co-author Gilles Tosello, researcher at the centre for prehistoric art at Toulouse University.

    But this is the strongest part of the shell and is "almost impossible" to break naturally, he said.

    On closer inspection, researchers found the shell had been carefully modified with an "elaborated technique", with a CT scan revealing two holes that they think were drilled to install a mouthpiece.

    'Sound from prehistory'

    The Magdalenian people were prehistoric hunters, spread across Europe, from northern Spain to Germany, at a time when animals like bison roamed in large herds.

    Their culture disappeared around 12,000 years ago as the cool, near-glacial climate warmed.

    They left an abundance of flint tools and weapons as well as caves decorated with paintings, like Marsoulas and Altamira in Spain.

    Researchers think the conch may have played a part in rituals or ceremonies, as it still does today in modern societies from Polynesia to South America.

    With its loud sound - roughly equivalent in decibels to an approaching subway train - the Magdalenians may have used the shell as a calling device.

    "The intensity produced is amazing," said co-author Philippe Walter, director of the laboratory of molecular and structural archaeology at Sorbonne University.

    "You can imagine what can happen at the entrance of the cave, or inside a cave, with this very strong sound."

    Future attempts to make music from the shell will use a 3D printed version of the fragile artefact.

    Walter said that researchers - looking at modern-day use in traditional ceremonies, and even to play jazz - are convinced there are many other notes in its repertoire.

    But he said we will never know what music the Magdalenians heard.

    "We cannot reconstitute the sound from prehistory," he said.

    ================================================== ====

    I have a couple of observations. One being, where they say it was loud - 100 db at 1 meter. Oh my goodness, that is loud. I would like to get a db reading on my conch, because is sure is loud, especially when I get a good note on it. There's an "overdrive" in it, a resonant frequency that when I hook into that, it's pretty scary.

    This shell has a mouthpiece 3.5 cm in diameter. That's big. Mine has an aperture of 3/4" or 1.9 cm. Wide apertures make it difficult to produce a good tight tone with much definition or volume, in my experience. But then again, I'm not trained on brass instruments and my embouchure is strictly amateur. If the person who played it got that loud a sound out of it. good for him! The scientists theorize a mouthpiece was fitted into the hole. I wonder if it was jagged. A photo would have been nice. The modern approach involves a power saw with fine teeth.

    The limited range is a fact. I get a natural fourth out of mine. So in contests, I've chosen songs with a short range. The first time I won, I played "Satisfaction" and "Smoke On The Water." The latter involved a bit of a cheat to get that sharp 4th note. The way you get melody from a conch is by putting your free hand into the chamber, changing its size. Counterintuitively, the deeper you push your hand, the lower the tone. So you have to plan ahead if you have an ascending melody line. I'll append "demos." Oh, and my horn is an E - made for the blues.





    While you're having a chuckle over our lackadaisical approach to intonation, bear in mind that, notwithstanding, these are both championship performances, from 2011 and 2020.
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    Default Re: speaking of Conch shells


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    Default Re: speaking of Conch shells

    Dude has some chops! He surely has put a lot of time into it to get that good.


    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    Default Re: speaking of Conch shells

    to JB Steve:

    Decibel X is an iPhone app that turns your phone into a dB meter. It's a fun tool to have available.
    (You do have interesting thoughts too!)
    Now I want a conch! My trumpet/French horn embrasure may awaken!

    Listening to dude in concern right now. He's playing some jazz standard right now. "The night has a thousand eyes," perhaps?

    Cool!

    f-d
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    Registered User Sue Rieter's Avatar
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    Default Re: speaking of Conch shells

    Boy, it sure is amazing the stuff I learn about on here.

    my embouchure is strictly amateur.

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    Default Re: speaking of Conch shells

    Well ... As much as I have a reputation for lengthy posts, I actually prefer verbal economy - saying the most with the fewest words. It's my desire to be precise and thorough in expressing my thoughts that occasionally gets me into trouble with lengthiness.

    That locution, however, is precise and correct. I've just fumbled along and figured out what works as best I could, with no formal training. I've been up against contestants who are horn players, and what they do with a conch shell is truly astounding.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

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    Default Re: speaking of Conch shells

    Quote Originally Posted by fatt-dad View Post
    Decibel X is an iPhone app that turns your phone into a dB meter. It's a fun tool to have available.
    Well, I'll be a ding-dong daddy from Dumas! Now I know. My horn produces 115-116 dB @ 1 meter. So that Magdalenian shell's 100 dB is respectable, and certainly impressive, but not championship level. That said, conchs have been used historically for signaling over long distances and in ceremonies and rituals. This would have served both purposes well.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

    Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!

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    two t's and one hyphen fatt-dad's Avatar
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    Default Re: speaking of Conch shells

    110 is 10 times greater than 100. It's like the Richter scale!

    f-d
    ˇpapá gordo ain’t no madre flaca!

    '20 A3, '30 L-1, '97 914, 2012 Cohen A5, 2012 Muth A5, '14 OM28A

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    Default Re: speaking of Conch shells

    Aha. Well, then. It's good and loud, I'll tell ya. And when the horn is right there, so close to your ears ... wowzer!

    In case anyone is wondering how we ever got to the subject of conch shells ... even I am, somewhat. But I think it had something to do with the thread about how musicians are making money from music, with the current situation. I mentioned my time working at a historical museum, where I could play music during the course of the day, to attract the attention of possible customers as they passed by. That included using the conch, a traditional signaling device and later a source of amusement.

    I didn't go into much detail there - just seemed too off-topic - and I still don't really want to here, but a bit seems in order. The museum delves into local history, mostly concrning the shipwreck business- more appropriately, salvage of shipwrecks. Key West is situated right along the main shipping lanes from ports on the Atlantic coast to New Orleans, where goods would then travel toward the interior either up the Mississippi or westward by wagons. During the westward expansion of the 1800s, this was a very busy operation, which led to an inordinate number of shipwrecks - another busy operation, and lucrative one. Reportedly, Key West grew to be the richest city per capita my the middle of the century. The conch was important for signaling across the water, it's sound being audible for miles. It also came to be used for amusement during slow times at sea and whatnot. There you have it.

    In an effort to bring some MC into this, i present yours truly and a co-worker, hard at work.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    Default Re: speaking of Conch shells

    I'd think that any archeological dig should include more than just sociologists. This story shows why. it's too easy to just dismiss stuff you don't understand with "oh, it was just garbage that accidentally got dropped in the tomb" or "it must have been a drinking vessel, and all these holes are just because someone got careless or their kid did it and they kept it for encouragement or time ate it away" or whatever. Frankly, I think every dig should include an 8-year-old who would pick up something and mess around with it and see what it really could do.
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    Default Re: speaking of Conch shells

    And there's this!


    https://reverb.com/item/33388755-she...by-ray-vincent
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    Old Hometown, Cabin Fever String Band

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    Default Re: speaking of Conch shells

    Quote Originally Posted by Randi Gormley View Post
    I'd think that any archeological dig should include more than just sociologists.
    Someone or several people with different sensibilities. This took nearly ninety years for someone to sort it out.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    Default Re: speaking of Conch shells

    Those shellbacks seem like very unique mandolins. They clearly took a huge amount of effort to build! However, I don't know why, but my brain hurts looking at the place where the neck attaches to the body. I'm not nearly smart enough to know how neck joints affect sound, but those bolts make me nervous.

  24. #18

    Default Re: speaking of Conch shells

    Quote Originally Posted by Randi Gormley View Post
    I'd think that any archeological dig should include more than just sociologists. This story shows why. it's too easy to just dismiss stuff you don't understand with "oh, it was just garbage that accidentally got dropped in the tomb" or "it must have been a drinking vessel, and all these holes are just because someone got careless or their kid did it and they kept it for encouragement or time ate it away" or whatever. Frankly, I think every dig should include an 8-year-old who would pick up something and mess around with it and see what it really could do.
    Fortunately, there’s been enough study about cave-tech so that those who dig are sensitive to tools and technology, with flint point knapping becoming a known skill, and the chemists feeding back materials info and the DNA folk researching, well, spectacular stuff. I’m convinced that for many academics, the artifacts and techniques of the 19th century have become invisible!

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    Default Re: speaking of Conch shells

    I think the point Randi was making was that archeological digs should have on staff at least one person who can look at finds from a different perspective. In this case, some kind of musician would have been helpful. Now, that might not be financially possible, not on site. But there should have been someone with a more cultural sensibility on the research team at the lab. This object's functionality should have been determined long ago.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

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    Default Re: speaking of Conch shells

    I'm going to risk offering one more video, even in the wake of the revelation of Steve Turre's masterful method. I believe this will be instructive in allowing people to see for themselves the basics of blowing the conch.

    I was on the verge of posting the video of us performing at the 2019 Conch Republic Days contest (our annual independence celebration), which we won. But things went a little wonky, mostly for me, though I pulled it out and we ended well.

    It took some doing, but I obtained the rehearsal video, which was a bit tighter, though my friend was a bit loud. You can see the way one's free hand position in the chamber affects pitch. We were fortunate to have found a matched pair of horns, which helped matters considerably.

    Yes, this was shortly after "Game Of Thrones" ended its run.

    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

    Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!

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    Default Re: speaking of Conch shells

    Or is it a Nautilus shell ?
    writing about music
    is like dancing,
    about architecture

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    Default Re: speaking of Conch shells

    Weeelllll ... I don't want to get too deeply into taxonomical nomenclature - I'm no biologist or any other sort of expert in that aspect of the world of shells. I'm a conch player, not a conchologist.

    I will say, though, that the instrument seen in Post #15 is not fabricated from a nautilus, but features a body made of wood in the shape of a nautilus shell. It looks like a nautilus will not work as a horn - its form is configured differently.

    Steve Turre is playing in Posts #6 and #7 what looks like a rather large whelk. The all-time winner, and my former boss, won repeatedly with something like that - though not as colorful - called a horse conch. The 2016 male winner played a shell from Australia that was enormous - you'll see it below and hear it in the video. Since then, the host organization passed a rule limiting shells to be the queen conch, our local variety, with its distinctive pink bell.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Photo #4 shows me in 2018 (I think) when I competed with an original blues, and dressed in blues guy garb. Even though this contest is held on the first weekend in March, it was really hot in that get-up. And I didn't win - originality only goes so far, I guess. My former boss won year after year playing the same thing, a modified version of "Sabre Dance." When I say modified, I mean he played it slightly wrong. But since he has retired from competition, others have taken over doing it - with the same error! In Photo #4 my friend from the Game of Tones video showed up with this contraption one year - a conch-trombone hybrid. I don't think the shell played a big part in sound production, though, but I can't be sure.


    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

    Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!

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