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Thread: Graduation for Saga AM-10?

  1. #1

    Default Graduation for Saga AM-10?

    Hi, new here. I just finished making a StewMac baritone ukulele I got as a gift from my son and his wife. I had so much fun making that (with lots of mistakes), my wife got me the Saga AM-10 kit for Valentine's Day. I'm not particularly handy or experienced in woodworking, but the uke still turned out nice (it's a great starter kit, and ukes are very forgiving.)

    But I can't find numbers to graduate the top plate for the Saga. The Siminoff book is no longer in print. It's available online for $250 (!) but that's over the budget. I bought the Kindle version, but it's missing what I needed most: the drawings!

    I've seen the drawings here for the Loars. I wondered if those would be useful for the A-style body, or if anyone has a good drawing for the Saga.

    I'm also happy to entertain any advice. I've read a few threads here from folks building this kit.

    A little about me: I'm mainly a keyboard player -- piano, Rhodes, Hammond, the classics, not so much synthesizers. I also play guitars -- dreadnaught, Spanish, and some electric; fingerstyle and plectrum. And now uke, though that's easy coming from guitar it's still a bigger head shift than between the others. I've never played mando but I have a friend I play with a lot who's a class fiddle/mando player (concert harp too.) I've occasionally noodled on someone's mando and it's a great instrument! I'm looking forward to being a not too terrible rhythm player maybe someday. It'll also help me work out arrangements for friends. I'm a big fan of folks like David Grisman, Sam Bush, Mike Marshall, Darol Anger, and Chris Thile.

    If you'r interested, some home recordings I did back in the early 2000's are available on Reverb Nation and Soundclick (same stuff both places but I think there's more info on Soundclick.) Don't expect professional results, and watch your woofers.

  2. #2
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Graduation for Saga AM-10?

    Elderly shows it in stock for $44.95.

    https://www.elderly.com/collections/...al-4th-edition

    The Loar graduations would be fine.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  3. #3

    Default Re: Graduation for Saga AM-10?

    Thanks! I used to visit Elderly when I lived in Ann Arbor. Only place I've ever bought an instrument from sight unseen.

    Can someone recommend a decent inexpensive scraper, and other tools for doing the final shaping?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Graduation for Saga AM-10?

    OK, the book arrived and it's great. Thanks for finding a source. All the sources I checked with reasonable prices were out-of-stock. This is the 2021 edition, btw, with color photos and other improvements. If anyone has any questions about this book please just ask.

    I'm in the process of fitting out my drill press to serve as a thickness meter, using a 1/4" bolt bent to 90 degrees with a WEN gauge. However, I may rethink that.

    So, what are good ways to remove wood to reduce the thickness? I see that normally people use thumb planes and scrapers. I worry about thumb planes with the F-holes already cut, and have never used a scraper (though I did pick up this one and I'll see how it works out.)

    I'm thinking about using a sanding disc and the drill press. Of course, if I do that I'll have to use something else for the thickness gauge.

    I'm also considering using my drill and a 5" sanding disc, or possibly getting an orbital sander (which I will probably want for other projects.) I worry about being precise enough with the orbital sander, and of course with a drill I'd have to be very careful to avoid all manner of mistakes.

    Please offer suggestions on how to go about graduating the top and back.

    Thanks!

  5. #5
    Registered User BeanJean's Avatar
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    Default Re: Graduation for Saga AM-10?

    Please keep us updated on your decisions and progress. Photos are always appreciated.

    I assembled a saga kit a couple years ago. I made the kit to learn about mandolin architecture. The instructions didn’t include graduating the top plate and I didn’t know to do it. My saga is a good campfire travel mando. But I wonder how the tone would be different if I had gone the extra mile.
    Eastman 815 f
    Northfield Calhoun
    Saga kit campfire/travel mando
    Music Makers Dakota

  6. #6
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Graduation for Saga AM-10?

    The Saga kit was known here as the IV (International Violin) kit as well. There are a whole lot of threads about these kits. Some might give you some information you might find worthwhile. They were one in the same kit.

    IV Kit

    Saga Kit

    Ken at International Violin also sold an F style kit that wasn't the same as anyone else's kit. They sold mandolins in the white as well. If you take a scan though those threads you can find some great information.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  7. #7
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Graduation for Saga AM-10?

    By the way, regarding graduations, here is a thread that still has active links regarding the subject.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Graduation for Saga AM-10?

    My favorite tool for carving is a Stanley number 100 1/2 curved bottom squirrel tail block plane although thumb planes are useful for the steeper areas near the neck and tail blocks. If you use a sanding disk, reduce the speed of the drill to about half of normal.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Graduation for Saga AM-10?

    Thanks for the input, guys. Mike, I'd checked out the Saga threads, but had no idea about the IV Kit, so thanks! I'll be checking out those threads.

    I think I'll start out using the orbital sander. I tried it on some pine and I think it might work out. I also will probably use a scraper to keep things even. I'll appreciate any tips on sharpening a scraper. I have a WorkSharp which should probably do the trick. My son says to hit it tangentially just to put a bit of a bur on it.

    Here are the top and back, sprayed with water to help show the grain. I didn't see the vertical streaking on the back at the time; perhaps too much water or just my bad photography. As you can see, not particularly lovely wood, but not bad. I'm thinking a darker stain might be in order.

    Attachment 192775

    Here's the neck. As a player, the fretboard looks good to me. There's what looks like a notch in the underside of the neck near the bridge, but it feels smooth. Might have been a repair to the wood before carving the neck. Plus a few nicks at tuner holes under the headstock. None of that will matter.

    Attachment 192776 Attachment 192777

    Here's the drill press fitted out to measure thickness. I plan to put a board on the platen and a sort of finger rising up out of it under the gauge to keep the plate clear of the platen when measuring. And a picture of my little workshop nook in my garage.

    Attachment 192778 Attachment 192779

  10. #10

    Default Re: Graduation for Saga AM-10?

    Hi Jeff, the links you posted won’t work here. Try adding photos as the directions suggest.
    About scrapers: lots of good videos out there plus most woodworking books have instructions. For straight ones, they’re usually first made true and square using a flat file. Then, using a burnisher or hard screwdriver shank, the edges are turned to burrs, a few degrees at a time, all 8 of them. There are a few variations, but that’s the basic technique. No grinder. When done correctly, you can feel the hook or burr with your fingers and pull almost plane-like shavings on soft wood. This only works on a piece of steel that’s the right hardness to be a scraper. You renew the edge several times before filing flat again.
    Some things also called scrapers are just thick, very hard tool steel, but that’s another animal entirely.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Graduation for Saga AM-10?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard500 View Post
    Hi Jeff, the links you posted won’t work here. Try adding photos as the directions suggest.
    I did! And at first they showed up correctly, and then not. I'll try again. I didn't post any links; I used the widget. Thanks for the tips on scrapers.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Graduation for Saga AM-10?

    Here are the top and back, sprayed with water to help show the grain. I didn't see the vertical streaking on the back at the time; perhaps too much water or just my bad photography. As you can see, not particularly lovely wood, but not bad. I'm thinking a darker stain might be in order.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Here's the neck. As a player, the fretboard looks good to me. There's what looks like a notch in the underside of the neck near the bridge, but it feels smooth. Might have been a repair to the wood before carving the neck. Plus a few nicks at tuner holes under the headstock. None of that will matter.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Here's the drill press fitted out to measure thickness. I plan to put a board on the platen and a sort of finger rising up out of it under the gauge to keep the plate clear of the platen when measuring. And a picture of my little workshop nook in my garage.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  13. #13

    Default Re: Graduation for Saga AM-10?

    Jeff, I finished an IV kit about 2 years ago. I’ve been really happy with it. It’s gotten a lot of really positive comments at jams for its tone despite my hamfisted playing.

    I bought the Siminoff book from IV with the kit and used his graduations for the build. I used scrapers and a finger plane to get that right along with a home made thickness gauge.

    If I were to change one thing, I’d make the neck thinner than I did. I’m used to it now, but when I switch between mandolins, this one feels like a baseball bat.
    Chinn A-style
    Chinn BluesBird Emando #1
    Aria M-300BG 2 Point
    Kay Model 68

  14. #14

    Default Re: Graduation for Saga AM-10?

    Thanks Chinn -- happy to hear yours turned out well! Since this will be my only mando, I won't have your particular issue. I've been informed that I'm already over my quota of stringed instruments by two. I plan to follow the Siminoff graduations too.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Graduation for Saga AM-10?

    Trying to visualize what I'll be doing, I graphed Siminoff's graduations in Excel. Here's what I got. That's 9 evenly spaced thicknesses, with 1 at the rim and 9 at the center, with thicknesses in thousandths of an inch. Obviously not to scale! And also, it's not the resulting shape, because the surface is curved. But it looks reasonable. Let me know if you think any adjustments are in order!

    Click image for larger version. 

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  16. #16

    Default Re: Graduation for Saga AM-10?

    So I got a start on it. It seems to be working well with the $45 Ryobi orbital sander. I'm using 60 grit on the maple back plate, which works fast enough to make rapid progress but slow enough to control. I'll go up to a higher number for the spruce top.

    I started by doing a rough transfer of the lines from Siminoff's book to the inside of the back, and sanding away at the deepest/thinnest part, erasing the lines. I found that erasing a pencil line takes off about 1/100th inch. Then I measured every inch or so in the groove I'd made, writing the thickness at each measured spot. I made a point to slide the spot I'm measuring around perpendicularly to the groove to find the lowest spot and measuring that. With the measurements written and a target in mind (13/100", for a final target of 12/100" leaving 1/100 for finish sanding on the other side) I kept sanding at any points higher than my target, moving the sander in smooth curves to try to keep things even along. I sanded with the edge of the disc, which seems to have made a groove just about the width I wanted, so good luck in that department.

    Here's a picture of the back with my measurements. Later I noticed I needed to recalibrate my thickness meter and I then redid it, with all measurements about 1/100 higher than marked in the picture. So lesson learned: check calibration periodically (I use the center to check.)

    Click image for larger version. 

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    According to Siminoff the center should be 250/1000", but it's 220/1000", so it'll just be a bit thinner there. Too bad; I doubt it'll matter. The center area of maximum thickness will be bigger than in the book. The inner line I drew is the edge of where I'll sand.

    To secure the back while sanding, I have it set on a gallon ziplock back half full of sand, and two pegs (broomstick sections taped to angle brackets and screwed into my work surface.) The work surface is an Ikea bread/cutting board ($20) that my wife had replaced and given to me and it works great as a sacrificial work surface. I especially like the groove around the outside, which collects screws, pencils, etc. The other side is bamboo and masking tape doesn't stick to it so I find I can't use that side much. I have it secured to my workbench using fence clamps.

    Here's my thickness meter, with the bump added at the bottom to make measuring easier especially where the other side recurves.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The hardest part for me has been writing down the numbers, believe it or not. I have "essential tremor" which is harmless but makes my hands shake. Normally it's not noticeable. But it gets worse with stress, exercise, or stimulants and right now I'm on prednisone to fight off a little chest infection. Working with power tools makes it especially bad, so I'm kinda screwed in that regard here. But it goes to show that while it may help to have fine motor coordination to do this work, it isn't an absolute necessity, and we gimps can have fun as makers. I wouldn't want to have to carve a scroll, or do any inlay work! Kits are great for folks like me.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Graduation for Saga AM-10?

    First goof: didn't glue the binding well enough:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    So, pull it all off and start over? Or just re-glue the unstuck part? There are a couple places where it's not tight to the top, but I could fill those with sawdust and CA.

    Yeah, I used green glue rather than blue. When I ordered it I was unaware there were two kinds.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Graduation for Saga AM-10?

    Using a knife I gently separated the very tops on both sides to back off to where the separation was. I found that the glue was holding very well, so I'm not backing off more than that. At the two concave bends I used a heat gun to very carefully heat the binding until it softened just a little. I could tell that when it does soften, it happens quickly. Anyway that helped make those two bends, which I then glued and taped. Then for each convex bend I held it with my thumb and again very carefully heated it up just until I felt the pressure start to abate on my thumb, and that was enough to get enough curve to then glue and tape.

    I don't think there's any problem using the green Duco cement, though I see that the blue "plastic model cement" is recommended here. No doubt the blue has some advantage and I'd love to hear about it if anyone happens to know. But I could tell very clearly that where I'd used enough glue, it bound very well. Hopefully it'll age well too.

    Next step will be graduating the top.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Graduation for Saga AM-10?

    Graduation is done. The orbital sander worked great. I can see that if I were serious as a builder and making multiple mandos, I'd learn to use a scraper, because I can see how it would be a more repeatable process, with less likelihood of thickness waves. (I did develop a couple, but caught it early enough in the process and was able to even it out.) The waves happened as a result of using the edge of the orbital sander in a somewhat circular motion, paying more attention to the deepest/thinnest area and not realizing I was taking more than I meant closer to the center. Of course, no doubt with scraping, there'd be plenty of other lessons to learn.

    My method was simple and repetitive. Mostly by eye, I copied the curves from Siminoff to the plate. I'd already interpolated to determine the thickness for each curve, so those were my targets. I measured every inch or so along the curve and wrote it on the plate. I sanded using the orbital sander to remove the pencil marking wherever it was bigger than desired. That generally reduced the thickness there by about 1/100th inch. (I used 60 grit on the maple back and 80 grit on the spruce top.) Each sanding pass only took a minute or two. I focused on the outermost curve (deepest/thinnest, "recurve" area) until it was close to the target, and then worked inwards. Measure, mark, sand off, using gentle arcing sweeps of the sander to cover an area and not just a spot, to try to keep things evenly worn away. Rinse and repeat. Might not be the quickest way, but it was safe and got me to where I wanted to go. My garage and everything in it is now covered with fine dust, though. I had to remove the dust catcher from the sander to get it inside the sides and at the slight angle I wanted. My wife wasn't thrilled at how her shiny black car looked. Fortunately a quick pass with the backpack blower fixed most of that.

    So now I have the tonebars glued on and am about to start trying to do the tuning. Sheesh, a lot to learn! I don't have a tuning meter that I've seen used in videos, but I find I can hear the note and compare to my piano and easily get within a half of a half step (half step being one note on the piano.) If I feel the need I can find software to use with my audio interface.

    I'll also need a way to shape the tonebars, not having a finger plane. I'll probably just get an inexpensive finger plane. The biggest issue there is that I don't have the kind of tools needed to set up a plane the way it really should be done, but hopefully it'll work well enough out of the box, or with a bit of sharpening on a WorkSharp (little belt sander for sharpening knives & yard tools.) I've also been following the thread on cheap tools.

  20. #20
    Registered User Tom Haywood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Graduation for Saga AM-10?

    I use a 1/2 inch chisel and some sandpaper backed with an eraser to do the tone bars. The spruce will mostly cooperate nicely with small motions. There may be some gouges where sandpaper will fix it. Resist the urge to make long passes when the spruce is cooperating - it is easy to quickly cut too deep.
    Tom

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  22. #21

    Default Re: Graduation for Saga AM-10?

    A chisel is working great, thanks! I guess that should have been obvious.

    Before graduating, the top & sides assembly chimed just below Bb (A=440). I didn't think to check it again after graduation and before attaching the tonebars. After attaching the tonebars, the pitch was Eb, a 4th higher than the original. Shaving the tonebars was having no effect, so I quit shaping them before losing too much wood.

    Now I'm sanding the top of the face to reduce overall thickness, as I think the profile on the underside is good, and I don't want to have to pull the tonebars off. I've managed to get the pitch (tapping on the tonebars) down to Bb (A=431). Siminoff says the two tonebars should be a half or full step apart, but I can't seem to get them to diverge. They're about 25 cents apart, and the bass tonebar has the higher pitch.

    Any suggestions?

  23. #22
    Registered User BeanJean's Avatar
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    Default Re: Graduation for Saga AM-10?

    I don’t have a suggestion but I’m interested in how you solved the problem.
    Eastman 815 f
    Northfield Calhoun
    Saga kit campfire/travel mando
    Music Makers Dakota

  24. #23

    Default Re: Graduation for Saga AM-10?

    Following the instructions, I guess. I thinned the bass tonebar more, mostly in the center, and dropped it to a semitone lower than the treble tonebar. I think I'm going to just go with that. I worry that if I keep shaving it trying to get the whole-tone difference, I won't quite make it all the way and then I'd have to figure out how to make a new tonebar. (Admittedly that shouldn't be difficult, but I don't know where I'd get the wood.) That did drop the top tonebar a bit, but not enough to matter. It was a tad sharp to begin with anyway.

    I've glued in the kerfing, so now I'm having fun drawing peghead shapes. I'm not artistically inclined so it's a struggle. Plus I have limited woodworking skills and few tools other than a band saw and some files. I might just go with the Martin style. ;-)

    Click image for larger version. 

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  25. #24

    Default Re: Graduation for Saga AM-10?

    Oh cripe! I just looked at that picture and rotated it in my head and realized that I got the tonebars mixed up. So now the bass tonebar is a half tone HIGHER than the treble.

    Probably time to shave them both off and start over. What would make good source wood for a couple tonebars?

  26. #25
    Registered User j. condino's Avatar
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    Default Re: Graduation for Saga AM-10?

    It is your first mandolin. Don't stress over it. You've got a whole bunch more lessons to learn, so keep moving forward.....
    www.condino.com

    Crafted by hand in a workshop powered by the sun.

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