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Thread: New to mando...coming from guitar...where would you start?

  1. #26

    Default Re: New to mando...coming from guitar...where would you start?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flat6Driver View Post
    How should I approach this similarly or differently than the guitar? ... What to think about, what to avoid?
    "General" questions; here's my general comment -

    I had the good fortune to start playing (electric gtr and sax) at age 9. Given proximity to the instruments, I also dabbled on flute, drums, and even B3 (my best buddy was being groomed for "church organist"). Fiddle came much later. Being a guitarist and fiddler rendered the mndln pretty much automatic when I got the inclination to play a little bluegrass (but then started down the trad Irish/Scots rabbit hole and everything except the pipes, so mndln got dropped for the most part).

    There were a few things that provided me the foundation to do anything I want with music over a lifetime:

    - Learning how to play the music I wanted to play from records, from the outset ("ear" training)
    - Classical study (this afforded the technique - finger independence - to enable facility on any instrument I picked up)

    I never thought about any of it until it started getting ridiculous; when I realized that I had the technical facility, and ear, to play virtually anything. I then began to feel and see music as a whole - an aural phenomenon (still largely unknown, as to its nature, of course); the instruments just tools for rendering sound - all the same as to their function, just different ratios, confiiguration, mechanism, et al. The stylistic, timbral, and organizational aspects being the challenging concerns (for example, studying classical music, you spend endless hours on tonal production). The degree to which someone succeeds with achievement is predicated on the quality of one's hearing - aural discernment, discrimination, "cognition."

    As far as shoulds and shouldn'ts, I would suggest developing one's "ear" maximally - there are many ways and methods of going about it, but generally, listening critically to as much diverse sound as possible to improve cognition. The other thing is rhythm - this is the great dependent variable: if you don't possess excellent rhythmic wherewithal, you likely won't get far with music; this is what makes musicians, musicians.

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    Default Re: New to mando...coming from guitar...where would you start?

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian View Post
    What on earth are you talking about? I guess I'm just too stupid to understand that "mandolin" uses completely different scales and notes, and a completely different way of constructing "chords" (which pitches are used) than a guitar, a piano, fiddle, flute etc. In that cast, "Mandolin" should be a mainstay of Indonesian gamelan groups!


    NH
    The quote in the beginning suggests that this post is in response to my previous post. But it comments on things I never said, and ideas that I never expressed.


    For instance you write

    “My suggestion is PUT THE EAR FIRST! … Instead of making everything follow some visual chart of chords, or tablature of scales) etc. Music is AUDITORY at it's root, not some-connect-the-dots picture drawing.”

    as if I needed to be told.

    And “If you want to play the same old Monroe licks ad infinitum, hooray. (for you)”

    I’ve never expressed that kind of desire. What I’ve said, several times, is that one of my original motives for taking up the mandolin was the desire to play fiddle tunes, e.g., those associated with Howdy Forrester, like Rutland’s Reel or Brilliancy,
    or things like the busy instrumental section of L Welk’s Champagne Polka, in their proper octave and without those awkward frequent string changes. (I had transcribed them on guitar several years earlier).

    Although the guitar remains my main instrument over the years I’ve broadened my approach to the mandolin — I’ ve even composed unaccompanied solo pieces for mando (which to my ear work well on mandolin only). And from the very start I’ve found stuff for presentation and improvisation from a great variety of sources.


    It is very clear from many of my posts that I am in no way enamored with Monroe’s approach with all those repeated notes and his strict obedience to barlines and periods.

    Finally: “The original question was about going from Guitar to play a mandolin. I didn't see anything about "bluegrass mandolin" or any other kind of mando style specified.”

    nor did I.

    “You know, I learned plenty of Tony Rice, Clarence White, Vassar Clements, Scotty Stoneman and even Mike Auldridge and Bill Keith and Eddie Adcock solos, note for note (or as close as I could come to it) on the mandolin neck, and it ONLY EXPANDED AND ENHANCED my playing! And that's just 'bluegrass'.

    BTW, Doyle Lawson recorded "Walk Don't Run", Gaudreau "Memphis", Jethro ("El Cumbanchero") and Skaggs was at his hottest when he was still enamored of Grappelli, Jethro and Texas swing players. I guess they somehow escaped "mandolin jail" for those transgressions.”


    And what exactly are you responding to, here?






    As the intelligent reader will note I gave no particular advice, I only related my own experience, since the TS says nothing about his background and nothing about his motives for taking up the mandolin. E.g., if his background involves Carter-style bass leads or Kentucky thumbpicking I certainly wouldn’t advise him to transfer that to the mandolin.

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  4. #28
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: New to mando...coming from guitar...where would you start?

    Personal opinions abound, WALDT and we each have our own experiences. There is nothing STRANGE at all about the advice to START by playing what you already know from guitar on mandolin … e.g., translate your guitar knowledge to the mandolin, or to take hold of ANY musical instrument and start by playing any melody you’ve played on any other instrument. Not only is it decidedly NOT STRANGE, it is INTUITIVE for me.

    My mandolin journey did not begin by choosing mandolin as an instrument to study … it began when I purchased an old bowl back mandolin on a whim while browsing eBay for guitars. I bought it, made it playable, and the first thing I did was to translate the licks and chords from a song I’d recently worked out on guitar - Tennessee Flat Top Box - to the mandolin in order to play it on mandolin at an upcoming jam for kicks.

    A year or so later, I decided to buy another mandolin and learn to play it (having given the first one away), and I focused on two things: Learning old time fiddle tunes, and translating songs from my guitar repertoire to mandolin.

    Everyone has to start somewhere, and there is no one here, regardless of experience, who can say that my approach was wrong, ineffective, strange, etc. etc. simply because they have a different viewpoint or differing experience. I see nothing strange in Nile’s’ advice, IMHO it is good advice and pertinent to the discussion.
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    Default Re: New to mando...coming from guitar...where would you start?

    I’m a mandolin beginner but I’ve played many instruments through my seven decades. As I’ve learned new instruments I’ve started with the music that is ensconced in my head and I search for that music’s home on the new instrument (occasionally learning that it’s not there), something familiar, something I can relate to in a new environment. I don’t remember the wording he used but Victor Wooten expresses it as playing Music instead of playing an instrument. My approach lets me quickly find the voice and vocabulary of the new instrument and to understand how it differs from what I already know; what works and what doesn’t. That’s my windy way of saying that your guitar experience can be helpful if you don’t let the irrelevant parts interfere with learning mandolin. Good luck to you!
    A couple years in, now, and still learning!
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  7. #30
    two t's and one hyphen fatt-dad's Avatar
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    Default Re: New to mando...coming from guitar...where would you start?

    go to an old-time jam. They'll likely play in D for a while, then maybe shift to A or G? Strum along, but write down the tunes they play - be a pest and ask if you have to.

    Find the tab for those tunes in the *.tef format (tabedit files). This very site has hundreds of tabedit files!

    Download the, "tabeditviewer," which allows you to print or show the music on the screen. The computer will play the computer rendition of the tune to inform the ear.

    Pluck on and be ready for the next jam.

    Rinse and repeat!

    f-d

    p.s., fully on board with Niles.
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    Default Re: New to mando...coming from guitar...where would you start?

    Just an FYI … there’s no point responding to the OP of this thread, he posted over a year ago & hasn’t been back here since March of last year. The thread was resurrected in February by a new member with a slightly different question … “How do I break out of guitar-centric fingering?”

    I’m not sure exactly what he meant by that, but learning and playing scales comfortably in all keys & positions should help, as well as learning some chord shapes and practicing your comping skills on mandolin.

    And a word to the wise: If you’re new here and have a question, it’s probably better to start a new thread to focus on your issue, as you can see, resurrecting an old thread may not be the best approach when your own specific question differs a bit from the original.
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  10. #32
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    Default Re: New to mando...coming from guitar...where would you start?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    Personal opinions abound, WALDT and we each have our own experiences. There is nothing STRANGE at all about the advice to START by playing what you already know from guitar on mandolin … e.g., translate your guitar knowledge to the mandolin, or to take hold of ANY musical instrument and start by playing any melody you’ve played on any other instrument. Not only is it decidedly NOT STRANGE, it is INTUITIVE for me.

    My mandolin journey did not begin by choosing mandolin as an instrument to study … it began when I purchased an old bowl back mandolin on a whim while browsing eBay for guitars. I bought it, made it playable, and the first thing I did was to translate the licks and chords from a song I’d recently worked out on guitar - Tennessee Flat Top Box - to the mandolin in order to play it on mandolin at an upcoming jam for kicks.

    A year or so later, I decided to buy another mandolin and learn to play it (having given the first one away), and I focused on two things: Learning old time fiddle tunes, and translating songs from my guitar repertoire to mandolin.

    Everyone has to start somewhere, and there is no one here, regardless of experience, who can say that my approach was wrong, ineffective, strange, etc. etc. simply because they have a different viewpoint or differing experience. I see nothing strange in Nile’s’ advice, IMHO it is good advice and pertinent to the discussion.
    Again: what I find strange is giving advice at all when the TS says nothing about his background or preferences or his motives for taking up mandolin.
    (so, really, it was a mistake to pay attention at all). As you can readily establish I did not.

    I took up the mando during my brief folk+oldtimey+bluegrass period, which ended in 1969. I had plenty of experience in fingerstyle and flatpicked lead guitar, but none of it applicable to these genres -- there I had mostly played backup using bass runs and figures inspired by, e.g., Riley Puckett and Benny Williams. On the mandolin I hoped to create a solo identity, so this is just one example where it would be senseless or futile to transfer "stuff" from one instrument to the other. It turns out that the meaning of "stuff" wasn't all that clear, here it seemed to include tunes and songs -- to me "stuff" is what you bring to instrument and the chosen pieces; interpretation, intros, arrangement, improvised solos. I gave NH the chance to clarify his meaning but he chose to insult me by responding, not to my actual statements, but to his assumptions.

  11. #33
    Registered User mbruno's Avatar
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    Default Re: New to mando...coming from guitar...where would you start?

    My first instrument was a guitar and I used to think of a mandolin as a backwards guitar. To that end, I would practice scales on my guitar backwards too (starting at the 12th fret and moving back to the 1st or something). To me, that seemed to make sense at the time I think - but now I honestly have to think about mandolin when I play guitar haha.

    As stated before - the theory and basic picking skills can transfer between instruments, but the deeper skills from guitar to mandolin don't transfer too well. Mandolin allows you to play chords you couldn't physically do with a guitar - so it has a significantly different chord set from guitar. The scales are different too - same notes, but the positions and fingerings are very different.

    I would suggest starting with a teacher if you can find one and some YouTube lessons. The teacher mainly to correct technical mistakes and build good habits - but also to ask questions and get directions. The YouTube stuff should help inspire you a bit and give you something to talk about with your teacher. In addition, some of the beginner books can be great - the bluegrass fakebook is a good one for learning tunes, Bluegrass Mandolin is a good book as well. These can help you learn chords and melodies (and help you learn standard notation if you don't know how to read that yet) which can all be really helpful.
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    Default Re: New to mando...coming from guitar...where would you start?

    Quote Originally Posted by fatt-dad View Post
    f-d

    p.s., fully on board with Niles.

    Great! Maybe then you can explain in what sense his post of Mar-11-2022,
    12:14 pm responds to or logically connects with, the post of mine quoted in the beginning.

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    Default Re: New to mando...coming from guitar...where would you start?

    This might be the place to start. Get that mandolin sound without having to contend with learning how to play one. Comes complete with built-in straphanger. Transition to the real thing later, if you want. You may not. And avoid all sorts of advice that runs all over the map.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Registered User Tim C.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: New to mando...coming from guitar...where would you start?

    My name is Tim Connell, a professional music educator and mandolinist, hello.

    I've created a traditional, non-tablature mandolin method series, the Mandolin Mastery series. As far as I know, it's the only non-classical method book currently on the market that teaches real music knowledge (no tablature) in tandem with the mandolin lessons.

    I teach students who are committed to learning their scales and chords (really, the actual notes in each chord, not just shapes on a fretboard).

    If you're interested in really learning how music works, how individual notes form chords, etc... check out www.timsmandolessons.com, I'd be happy to help all of you improve your understanding of music.
    Tim Connell
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    Default Re: New to mando...coming from guitar...where would you start?

    [QUOTE=journeybear;1859562]This might be the place to start. Get that mandolin sound without having to contend with learning how to play one. Comes complete with built-in straphanger. Transition to the real thing later, if you want. You may not. And avoid all sorts of advice that runs
    It will not sound like a mandolin, it will sound like a high-pitched guitar

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