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Thread: New Mandolin Style

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    Post New Mandolin Style

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    Hey this is my first mandolin build. There are a few problems that I will need to address in my second one. The main problem being the lack of bass. I think it has to do with the way I did the tone bars, so on my next one I will do more traditional tone bars. I have also been thinking about doing an X-brace to see if that would help anymore. The other thing I did different on this mandolin is the bridge. It is a set bridge so it doesn't have any adjustability up or down, but it is also radiused. I think I like the radiused bridge better than the usual flat bridge that I have on my other mandolins, I find it easier to crosspick with the radiused. The bridge is also too thick so I will need to thin it down maybe on this mandolin but definitely on my next one. Also, with the radiused bridge there wasn't really a need to compensate it forward and back for each string they mostly could just stay in line. It doesn't effect anything I just found it cool. Let me know what you think and if you have and advice for me going forward. If you have any questions I will answer those to the best of my ability. Thanks
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    One more thing. I was thinking about calling this style the G style. Since it is kind of a cross between an F and an A style, but recently found out that name was taken. If you have any recommendations on what this style should be called I'd love to hear it.

  2. #2
    Registered User jim simpson's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Mandolin Style

    totally unique design!
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  4. #3

    Default Re: New Mandolin Style

    Definitely different. The immediate look says ‘it’s a face’ to me, so maybe naming in that general direction.

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Mandolin Style

    I assume that you have built other instruments otherwise this design would be a true challenge for anyone. What made you decide on the integral scroll design? It is a cool design and very unusual for sure.

    Questions: are those scrolls hollow or do they have any wood inside? That might reduce the volume of the tone chamber. In any case, I wonder if the acoustic experts here can comment on how even hollow scrolls in the heart of the instrument would affect the bass response. I am guessing thought that that may not be the problem. I would guess that the carving of the top might have some effect.How did you determine how to thin out the top and back?

    As for the bridge, can you post some side views? I would think you might want to work on your bridge design on this instrument to see how a thinner bridge would affect the tone and have a baseline for future. Also, I would consider not using such a deep notching for the strings. Most mandolins have both nuts and bridges with more shallow notches.

    This article by Frank Ford may give you some guidance on your bridge design.

    Bear in mind that I am no luthier, just a long-time player. I love out-of-the-ordinary designs but not when they reduce the musical tone or playability. This might be an interesting journey to see how your design will change over time and experimentation. You may very well be able to work out the kinks on subsequent attempts.
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  8. #5

    Default Re: New Mandolin Style

    Hey, thank you for your feedback, and thanks for showing me that article it was definitely something I didn't factor in while building the bridge. This is my second instrument, the first being a Martin OM style acoustic guitar I built in a class. Here is the side view of the bride, I put it next to the bridge off of my Flatiron.
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    I weighed them to see what the difference would be and the ebony bridge weighed in at 15 grams and the maple bridge (off of my mandolin) weighed in at 7 grams. I think the problem could be that my bridge is not tapered. I definitely will make a few bridges and see which one sound the best. I've also been wanting to try a violin or cello style bridge on a mandolin for a while now so maybe this is the time for that.
    On to some of your other questions. The scrolls on either side are hollow except for a piece of wood at the center where the two sides meet up. The top is probably a big reason for the bass problem. I determined the top and back thickness by measuring the thicknesses off of my Flatiron mandolin. I realized I did a few things wrong with it after reading up on how they are supposed to be contracted. First, I left it too thick leaving it at about 4.5 mm in the center and not really tapering it out towards the edges. I think I can get away with a thinner top than usually since the sides are much closer to the center on this design than on an F or an A style. I hope I can work out these kinks relatively easily since the volume isn't a problem with it. It is just trying to get some more bass out of it.

  9. #6

    Default Re: New Mandolin Style

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard500 View Post
    Definitely different. The immediate look says ‘it’s a face’ to me, so maybe naming in that general direction.
    It's funny a lot of people say the same thing. While I was building it my mom would always tell me it looked like some sort of alien. I don't know if it would be a compliment or an insult to name it after someone I know since it looks like an uncommon face.

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    Registered User Mandolin Deep Cuts's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Mandolin Style

    I just gotta say this is GORGEOUS. Get that low end solved, and I’d purchase one for sure. To me, a good bass range is what makes me like a mandolin.

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  12. #8
    Play on FredK's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Mandolin Style

    I really like the look of the scroll incorporated in the A shape. Looking forward to following your journey on developing this further.
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    Default Re: New Mandolin Style

    I am sorry to say that I think the problem is in your basic design. I’m thinking that there has to be some kind of wood blocks to support those scrolls, am I right? Those could be acting to dampen the vibrations of the top. Even if not and they are hollow, I don’t believe the scrolls would vibrate in the same was as the rest of the top. In effect you have reduced the overall vibrating surface. The scrolls may be aesthetically pleasing but their presence probably is detrimental sound. I am not an acoustics expert but I do understand how instruments work. A freely vibrating top is huge.
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    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Mandolin Style

    There are almost three scrolls
    I might give it a “Q” classification as in “Curley Q”
    It’s a different take to say the least. You say it lacks some bass response, are both of the inward scrolls “blocked” in the same manner of an F-5? If that is so, the decrease in internal volume may be an issue in play relative to that. I’m no luthier by any stretch but, it’s a consideration.
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  16. #11

    Default Re: New Mandolin Style

    Quote Originally Posted by multidon View Post
    I am sorry to say that I think the problem is in your basic design. I’m thinking that there has to be some kind of wood blocks to support those scrolls, am I right? Those could be acting to dampen the vibrations of the top. Even if not and they are hollow, I don’t believe the scrolls would vibrate in the same was as the rest of the top. In effect you have reduced the overall vibrating surface. The scrolls may be aesthetically pleasing but their presence probably is detrimental sound. I am not an acoustics expert but I do understand how instruments work. A freely vibrating top is huge.
    Yes I had the same concern. The overall chamber is smaller too so that could be part of the problem. The scrolls only have a small block where the sides connect and I made it out of spruce thinking that would vibrate better than mahogany or maple. I'm hoping that a thinner top that tapers towards tge sides and better tonebars will do the trick. Also when I play a bass note the scroll itself has some vibration, more so than when you touch the top, that you can feel when you touch it. I don't know if that is a good or bad thing.

  17. #12

    Default Re: New Mandolin Style

    Quote Originally Posted by Timbofood View Post
    There are almost three scrolls
    I might give it a “Q” classification as in “Curley Q”
    It’s a different take to say the least. You say it lacks some bass response, are both of the inward scrolls “blocked” in the same manner of an F-5? If that is so, the decrease in internal volume may be an issue in play relative to that. I’m no luthier by any stretch but, it’s a consideration.
    It’s different, no one can steal it and claim they mistook it for their own!
    Definitely a great name to consider! The scrolls only have a small block where the sides meet not as big as an F style, it doesn't extend throughout the scroll.

  18. #13

    Default Re: New Mandolin Style

    Why not remove the back of this one and let us all take a look under the hood? There may be few lessons to learn fixing some of the issues before starting your next build??? Just thinking out loud....

    Len B.
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    Every day is a gift. Sheila Lagrand's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Mandolin Style

    When I look at this mandolin I see someone holding a log (small, as if for a fire) under each arm. Or, wood under one arm and a loaf of bread under the other. So it makes me think of preparing for breakfast on a cold morning. Not sure what that does for naming, but that image is what I see. The scroll on the headstock is unruly bedhead popping down over a forehead!

    It is a beautiful design. Just stunning. I would like to see it photographed without the strap attached (so I could better see the heel design) and not quite so backlit about the headstock area. Yet, all in all, Bravo!
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    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Mandolin Style

    I think a unique design will need an especially powerful sound if commerce is part of your goal. The best compliment will be when strangers give you money.

    An interesting effort for sure.
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    Default Re: New Mandolin Style

    Quote Originally Posted by lenf12 View Post
    Why not remove the back of this one and let us all take a look under the hood? There may be few lessons to learn fixing some of the issues before starting your next build??? Just thinking out loud....

    Len B.
    Clearwater, FL
    I am about ready for glueup on my second one, I just need to bend the sides. I could post some pictures of the top if you think that would help diagnose a problem with it

  23. #17
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Mandolin Style

    Frankly, unless those scrolls give you added functionality or superior tone, it seems to be a lot of work to create them for primarily cosmetic purposes. F models do get more money due to the accepted demand of tradition in bluegrass circles but in reality the same maker can get the same tone and playability from an A model as an F and charge less money. Often they are selling beauty and cosmetic additions (with some functionality of the ability to tie on a strap).

    Calculate how much more time you have to put into creating those scrolls and see if it worth it. Of course, it is up to you if you have your heart on this design.
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    Default Re: New Mandolin Style

    If you look at this and squint a little, the body is that of a violin, since the two scrolls eliminate similar parts of the plate as the middle bouts. However, instead of f-holes liberating the plate in the same area, the plate is pinned, and there are two sound holes effectively in the upper bout of relatively small area. All of these novel bits relate to the acoustics, so I don’t think extrapolating standard layout would be relevant.
    That is, multiple aspects have to be adjusted, and interactively, which could take a lot of experimentation, with not much guidance from current design concepts. In my world, a thesis could be extracted from such a development. A product? Wouldn’t even guess.

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    Chu Dat Frawg Eric C.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: New Mandolin Style

    Might want to shave the bridge top down so the strings aren't sitting so deep in the slots? You would typically want them sitting halfway into the top. Might be pinching them? Looks pretty cool!

  26. #20
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Mandolin Style

    Really interesting and imaginative, but I doubt its practicality re: acoustics. I think there is good reason why the traditional Gibson scroll of the F models was placed "outside" the sound chamber, since it is more a decorative feature than an acoustical one.

    There is a builder I've seen but don't recall whom it is, who uses the fibonacci spiral to make sound chambers as an acoustical feature though. Would be great to have more of the good builders comment on what they think of your design acoustically.
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Mandolin Style

    That builder is Ray Vincent. Here’s an example: https://reverb.com/item/21763837-handmade-fibonacci-spiral-mandolin-2018-linseed-oil.

    It occurs to me that if the OP’s scrolls do interfere with excellent sound production to use them as a decorative aspect to keep the same pleasing and unique look of the instrument. It would also cut down the wood bending time but maintain the aesthetics.
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    Default Re: New Mandolin Style

    What an interesting concept!

    Any particular reason to end the fretting (15 frets) at a high G rather than A or C?

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    Default Re: New Mandolin Style

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    What an interesting concept!

    Any particular reason to end the fretting (15 frets) at a high G rather than A or C?
    I had trouble playing way up on the neck over the 15 fret. The notes would sounds dissonant or buzz out so I wanted to try it fretless. It works okay its pretty hard to hit the note pwrfectly since the spacing is so small between notes. But its cool because just out of luck the flaming on the neck up there almost perfectly lines up with where the notes are

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    Registered User CWRoyds's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Mandolin Style

    It is a super adventurous, interesting, and cool design.
    However, surely the scroll shapes taking up huge real estate in the meat of the tone producing area of the mandolin will hamper tone.
    Your lack of bass seems to be an example.

    I really like the concept, but I would think mandolin designs should be about tone, rather than looks.
    If the tone is cool, then yahoo, but if the tone suffers from a design, then poo.

    If you are absolutely stuck on the idea of having scrolls in the design, maybe pushing them back down the body might help.
    Maybe something like this:

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    Just a thought.
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    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Mandolin Style

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick.little View Post
    I had trouble playing way up on the neck over the 15 fret. The notes would sounds dissonant or buzz out so I wanted to try it fretless. It works okay its pretty hard to hit the note pwrfectly since the spacing is so small between notes. But its cool because just out of luck the flaming on the neck up there almost perfectly lines up with where the notes are
    OK, fretless! I sort of like that idea.

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