Mandolin & vocal with Capo & Harmonicas?

[MandoPiper1]

First a little History!
I'm a 68 year old musician who performs at local Open Mics. and Senior Centers. I'm not a blue grass picker and never will be. What I do, is sing Irish and folk tunes with mandolin accompaniment while I work percussion instruments with my feet. Of all the Open Mics. I've ever performed at it mostly performers with a guitar in their hands singing Denver and Lightfoot tunes, but when I show up with a mandolin it gets their attention because I'm doing something different!
I presently use a capo up to the 5th fret because some of my tunes are difficult for my voice in a lower register. Please don't tell me to learn cords up the fret board. It's too late for that, and I'm happy with what I'm doing!

I've recently purchased a set of harmonicas in the keys of A, C, D, & G to add another voice in my tunes. They allow me to add interesting interludes between some of the verses. The problem I'm encountering is which key harmonica to use at each capo location. So far by trial and error I think I have discovered the following.
Open........................G Harmonica
Capo @1st fret...........?
2nd................A
3rd................ ?
4th.................?
5th.................C
I've been trying each harmonica on every tune (time consuming) and it's become clear that I'll need to invest in other key Harps, but hopefully you folks can help me fill in the above question marks and save me some time.
Thank you for reading this!
Ron

[NDO]

Open... G (straight) or C (cross harp)
Fret 1...Ab (straight) or Db/C# (cross harp)
Fret 2...A (straight) or D (cross harp)
Fret 3...Bb (straight) or Eb (cross harp)
Fret 4...B (straight) or E (cross harp)
Fret 5...C (straight) or F (cross harp)

[pops1]

Open... G (straight) or C (cross harp)
Fret 1...Ab (straight) or Db/C# (cross harp)
Fret 2...A (straight) or D (cross harp)
Fret 3...Bb (straight) or Eb (cross harp)
Fret 4...B (straight) or E (cross harp)
Fret 5...C (straight) or F (cross harp)

That is only if you are playing in the key of G. If you are playing in the key of D it would be a D straight or G cross etc. etc. etc.
In other words whatever key you are playing in on the mandolin the same key of straight harp, or the fourth of the key is the cross. C=1, F=4, G=5 of the chords in the key of C. If you are playing in the key of C and are capoed on the 5th fret you would be in the Key of F. If you are playing in G the key of C with a capo on the 5th fret.

[allenhopkins]

Open... G (straight) or C (cross harp)...

OK -- this guide depends on your definition of "cross harp." The usual definition of "cross harp" or "second position" is playing in the "dominant" or "5 chord" of the key marked on the harmonica ("straight harp" or "first position"). Thus, you would play in the key of D "cross harp" on a G harmonica.

The table NDO provides shows "cross harp" as playing in the "subdominant" or "4 chord," C on a G harmonica. I consider this "third position", and save it for a few blues tunes that have the 1/3/6/2/5 chord progression, where it works well (check out Nobody Knows You When You're Down and Out, although that goes 1/3/6m/4/1/6/2/5, at least the way I play it).

I think the OP is basically playing G chords -- maybe C and D chords as well (?) -- and moving the capo around. Also, note that the repertoire's "Irish and folk tunes," which suggests "not blues," and implies that playing "straight harp/first position" may be the most useful approach for that type of music.

Therefore, I'd say that the G harp would work for G chords un-capoed/open, the A harp for capo on the 2nd fret, the C harp for capo on the 5th fret. The D harp would work for D chords open, C chords on the 2nd fret, or G chords on the 7th fret -- but the OP states they only capo up to the 5th fret.

I play harmonica and guitar quite a bit, occasionally harmonica and ukulele (I have a pretty nice arrangement of Sentimental Journey), but haven't tried harmonica and mandolin. Does this imply just chording on the mandolin, similar to what Mr. Mahar is playing here?



Later: Re-reading NDO's post, I understand that what is meant by his chart, is that if you want to play in the key of G, you either use a G harmonica played "straight harp/first position," or a C harmonica played "cross harp/second position." G being the "dominant" or "5 chord" of C. I still think that the OP would find playing "straight harp" more useful for the described repertoire, but since "interesting interludes between some of the verses" is what's wanted, perhaps playing the melody note-for-note, as in the att. video, is not the only thing that the OP wants to do.

[NDO]

Yes, to clarify... I was assuming based on the post that the OP was playing G chord progressions on the mandolin and then adding capo, so I was suggesting playing either a G harp (straight) or a C harp (cross) to accompany that chord progression, etc.
obviously playing different chord progressions with and without the capo would lead to a whole different chart.

[journeybear]

Capoing at the second fret and playing chords in the key of C, you'd be actually in the key of D, so you would use your D harp.

For capoing at the third fret, if you play chords in the key of A, you'd be actually in the key of C, so you would use your C harp.

Or you could play in C without a capo.

It would help if you would tell us what chords you feel most comfortable playing. Otherwise it seems we're guessing too much.

[MandoPiper1]

Thanks to all of you who took the time and effort to reply to my questions!

When I am looking for new tunes I often go to YouTube and just start surfing. When I find a tune of interest I then go to The Ultimate Guitar website which gives me the lyrics and cords. I then get the mandolin and capo and try to duplicate it by using the location of the capo Once I get close to figuring the tune out I then move the capo to obtain the best location for my voice. I know it's a pretty basic and nonprofessional, but it works for me.

Allenhopkins,
Your lengthy explanations were very helpful! I just wish I had a better understanding of music key theory. The video of Mr. Mahar is kind of like me except I've added vocal and I use the harp to break the tune up with cord and harmonica interludes.
Journeybear,
The majority of the tunes I perform use these cords. G C D A F Am Bm Em Dm G7 C7 plus others.
Because of my age I'm only able to use cords with two or three fingers so I sometimes have to be creative with alternatives.

I want so much to perform before an audience again!! I would be performing an Irish themed gig at our local senior center next week but the virus again prevents me from doing this.
Thanks again,
Ron

[journeybear]

Thanks - I've got a better idea of what you're trying to sort out.

The chords you mention provide access to tons of tunes in the keys of G, C, and D. Capoing will expand your range, although so would learning more chords.

Three chord songs typically use the I, IV, and V chords in that key, although the I, IIm, V variant is also common, thus:

G - G, C, D and G, Am, D
C - C, F, G and C, Dm, A
D - D, G, A and D, Em, A

Now, say a song you're learning is in C but it's a bit low for your voice, you could capo at the second fret, putting it in D. Alternatively, you could just play it in D, eliminating the need for the capo. I believe chord sheets at Ultimate Guitar are usually written in the same key as the recording. That key could have been determined by what key was best for that singer's voice. Of course, your voice's range is bound to be different; whether by a little or lot will vary. That would lead to translating the key as written to a key more suitable for your voice. You could do this by writing down the chart as written, and then substituting for each chord whatever chords would be higher or lower by the same amount - this is called transposing. It's a bit of work, but it's an alternative to using the capo. Eventually you'll be able to do this in your head. There are also sites which include an automatic transposing function. Chordie.com comes to mind.

I hope this helps you. As with all things, the more you do it, the easier and more natural it will become.

[pops1]

A VIm is also a very common, even more so than the IIm, and would be an Em in the key of G

[MandoPiper1]

A Discovery!
I use a capo on the 3rd fret on many of the tunes I perform. (My voice works best here)
Yesterday I practiced some of my 3rd fret tunes and discovered the following.
1. On 3rd fret capo tunes that had only G. C. D cords my Bb harp sounded great!
2. On 3rd fret capo tunes that had A..C..F..Am..G..D cords, none of my harps matched!
What key harps should I consider for the #2 tunes?

It appears to me that the capo does not dictate the key of the tune, but it's the cords and notes used.
I need to do some research on this subject. Any ideas for a person with limited music theory?
Thank You!

[journeybear]

Any voyage of discovery is bound to lead someone ... somewhere. One can be told many things, but may still need to learn for oneself.

Some of this has already been covered here. But if you need to sort through and learn from doing on your own, you're still getting to your destination.

Capoing on the third fret and playing chords from the key of G means you're playing in Bb - ta da!

Capoing on the third fret and playing chords from the key of A means you're playing in C. Learn an E chord fingering and you're all set.

My personal preference is no capo. It should help you in the long run to learn more chords so you can do away with it altogether. But as I said above, whatever route you take to your destination, when you reach it, you've gotten there. So to speak.

(Didn't mention you had a Bb harp until now, BTW.)

[NDO]

You are correct, the correct harmonica is dictated by what key the song is in, not what capo is used. You are changing the key of the song when you capo up, raising a half step each fret. So your G goes up Ab-A-Bb... so Bb for third capo in your first example.
If your song is in A it goes up Bb-B-C for third capo.
If your song is in C it goes up Db-D-Eb.
If your song is in D it goes up Eb-E-F.

I couldn’t tell based on the chords you listed which key the second set of songs were in... maybe give some specific songs or chord progressions and someone can help dial you in.

Edit to add: I was slow on the response, journeybear replied more usefully than I did...
I likewise think transposing the tunes to eliminate the capo would make them easier to play.

[allenhopkins]

...Allenhopkins,Your lengthy explanations were very helpful! I just wish I had a better understanding of music key theory. The video of Mr. Mahar is kind of like me except I've added vocal and I use the harp to break the tune up with cord and harmonica interludes...

Ron, thanx for the compliment. I've been teaching harmonica for about 30 years, off and on, most recently at a local community music school, pre-pandemic. I do get a bit into music theory, I hope not enough to scare anyone...

[MandoPiper1]

I Hope I'm Getting Closer!!
This morning I found 3 charts on the internet.
1. Mandolin cords and key chart (shows 5 cords used in each key.)
2. Mandolin fingerboard chart (shows all the notes at each fret.)
3. Diatonic harmonica note layout chart (shows all the notes obtained on 12 different key harps.)

4. I then chose one of my simple 3 cord tunes containing G,C &D cords.
5. I then wrote down all the notes used in each cord in alphabetical order. (A,B,C,D,E,G#)
6. I then went to the diatonic harp chart and found that a G harmonica would be the best match.
I sure hope I'm on the right track!
Many thanks to all of you!!
Ron

[journeybear]

Sounds like a plan!

Books can be very helpful. That's a big part of how I learned to play mandolin. Back in those days - late 60s-early 70s - there was no internet. And I didn't live in a bluegrass-rich area. So I couldn't ask cousin Jethro or anyone, since no one knew what it was. I got a book of mandolin chords and a few song books of bands I liked whose songs I knew. Coordinating these two information streams made all the difference.

Sounds like you're on your way. Just one more thing, please - they're chords. Thanks!

[pops1]

Ron, for finding the key of the song 99% of the time it is the last chord played. It is easier to figure out what harp just from the key of the song. G C D would be the key of G

Here is a chart, not full
G= G C D
C= C F G
D= D G A
E= E A B
A= A D E

You see what I mean, you can figure out others by simply adding up from a known = Ab= Ab C# D#, B= B E F#

[MandoPiper1]

I'm At Wits End!
I thought I had it licked, but I was foiled again!
As soon as I put the capo on each ascending fret the open G chord on my tuner changed to a G# and then A then A# and so forth.
Should I be using these new values to select a harp using the diatonic harp chart I found?
The bottom line for me is to determine the harmonica keys for a mandolin with a capo on the 3rd fret.
My Bb harp works on some of my 3rd fret tunes but not on all of them.
Are their other possible harps that would work with my capo on the 3rd fret?
pops1
I also play the Scottish small pipes (15 yrs) and when our group is looking at a new score we look at the final note. As you said 99% of the time it tells us the key so we can adjust our drones. I'll try your chart and see what happens

I won't be bothering you folks any more! When our small pipe group is able to get together again I will ask our leader (Eastman School Of Music Grad) to help me with this complex subject.
Stay safe, and happy trails
Ron

[NDO]

I'm At Wits End!
I thought I had it licked, but I was foiled again!
As soon as I put the capo on each ascending fret the open G chord on my tuner changed to a G# and then A then A# and so forth.
Should I be using these new values to select a harp using the diatonic harp chart I found?
The bottom line for me is to determine the harmonica keys for a mandolin with a capo on the 3rd fret.
My Bb harp works on some of my 3rd fret tunes but not on all of them.
Are their other possible harps that would work with my capo on the 3rd fret?
pops1
I also play the Scottish small pipes (15 yrs) and when our group is looking at a new score we look at the final note. As you said 99% of the time it tells us the key so we can adjust our drones. I'll try your chart and see what happens

I won't be bothering you folks any more! When our small pipe group is able to get together again I will ask our leader (Eastman School Of Music Grad) to help me with this complex subject.
Stay safe, and happy trails
Ron

You should notice that the tuner values you noted above correspond to the harmonica keys in my first reply to this thread. (G# = Ab and A#= Bb). So yes, your diatonic harp chart will work.

As noted above... yes, other harp keys may be a fit for the third fret capo. It depends what key the song is in before the capo.

[pops1]

The harp has to be in the key of the song/tune. When you capo and keep the same chords you change the key. G capo on the 1st is Ab, on the second is A, Third fret is Bb etc. So when you capo you will need to figure the new key and it is a simple count up. If you capo on the 5th fret and play in G you will now be in C.
1st fret Ab
2ond fret A
3rd fret Bb
4th fret B
5th fret C

[lowtone2]

OK -- this guide depends on your definition of "cross harp." The usual definition of "cross harp" or "second position" is playing in the "dominant" or "5 chord" of the key marked on the harmonica ("straight harp" or "first position"). Thus, you would play in the key of D "cross harp" on a G harmonica.

The table NDO provides shows "cross harp" as playing in the "subdominant" or "4 chord," C on a G harmonica. I consider this "third position", and save it for a few blues tunes that have the 1/3/6/2/5 chord progression, where it works well (check out Nobody Knows You When You're Down and Out, although that goes 1/3/6m/4/1/6/2/5, at least the way I play it).

I think the OP is basically playing G chords -- maybe C and D chords as well (?) -- and moving the capo around. Also, note that the repertoire's "Irish and folk tunes," which suggests "not blues," and implies that playing "straight harp/first position" may be the most useful approach for that type of music.

Therefore, I'd say that the G harp would work for G chords un-capoed/open, the A harp for capo on the 2nd fret, the C harp for capo on the 5th fret. The D harp would work for D chords open, C chords on the 2nd fret, or G chords on the 7th fret -- but the OP states they only capo up to the 5th fret.

I play harmonica and guitar quite a bit, occasionally harmonica and ukulele (I have a pretty nice arrangement of Sentimental Journey), but haven't tried harmonica and mandolin. Does this imply just chording on the mandolin, similar to what Mr. Mahar is playing here?



Later: Re-reading NDO's post, I understand that what is meant by his chart, is that if you want to play in the key of G, you either use a G harmonica played "straight harp/first position," or a C harmonica played "cross harp/second position." G being the "dominant" or "5 chord" of C. I still think that the OP would find playing "straight harp" more useful for the described repertoire, but since "interesting interludes between some of the verses" is what's wanted, perhaps playing the melody note-for-note, as in the att. video, is not the only thing that the OP wants to do.

Most harp players would call 3rd position on a G harp playing in the key of A. Not true minor but it's a dorian minor without bends, great for playing minor blues. It follows the circle of 5ths: with a G harp 1st position is key of G, 2nd or cross is key of D, 3rd is A...

[jaycat]

Another little tip, if you're not already thoroughly confused... you don't need to do anything special to play along with the minor chords, just play their relative majors... so if you get to an E minor, blow a G, it'll sound fine.

[MandoPiper1]

Mission Accomplished
I just received a lower quality $25 Eb harp from Amazon and it works wonderfully along with my $15 Bb harp with the capo on the 3rd fret. If these lower quality harps don't hold up for very long I can then confidently replace them with quality instruments from Hohner to match my other harps.
I GOT THE SHOT TODAY
Thanks to all of you who replied!
Lets make some music!
Ron

[allenhopkins]

Just a possibility for consideration: the Lee Oskar line of harps is set up so that you can replace the reed pans without replacing the entire instrument. They're comparable in quality to the pro-quality Hohners, and the reed pans are about half the price of a new instrument. When your reeds wear out -- which may be sooner, later or never depending on your technique and the frequency with which you use each instrument -- you can take the harmonica apart, put new reeds in, and save half the replacement cost.

[JeffD]

MandoPiper1 I think you are doing real well. You are digging the knowledge directly out of the hardpan mountainside because you are looking for solutions to real problems you have experienced. As a result you will be able to keep the knowledge and the understanding you gain. Much better, IMO, than sitting for a course or reading a book on music theory, absorbing a whole bunch of stuff that is essentially math, and which, without context and immediate usefulness, does not stick. A lot of really fun "ahaa" moments are just around the corner for you. I am jealous.

Seriously, enjoy the journey. You are doing it right, IMO. Life is as much about getting there as it is about being there.

[MandoPiper1]

JeffD
Thank you for the kind words!
This morning I went down stairs for my daily practice to work on 8 new tunes that I hope to perform in the future. Several of them I use the capo on the 3rd fret and with my 2 new China harps I was able to create simple Bob Dylan interludes on all of them!
Happy Trails,
Ron