Mandolin world vs fiddle world

[Nick Gellie]

Doug

Thanks for bringing up this thread. I happen to have bought a Chinese made shop violin for about $300 USD including Freight. It is a distressed beautiful looking instrument. Just lately I have been playing the heck out of it and in so doing I have found a sweet spot for playing fiddle tunes on it. I am in the process of bringing back to life a German made 1850s violin. It was stepped on at a gig and the top was smashed. I am putting a new top on it.

I have delved into violin making because of the violin's mystique and lore. I love it. I found a German made violin a few years back that was a real beauty. Had a wonderful throaty tone.

Because of this new knowledge In violin making I find it very useful for mandolin making. It is nice to interchange between the two. There is nothing more exciting than picking up a bow and playing a restored or new violin to see how it plays.

Yes I can now make an old fiddle sound much better since I discovered the ins and outs of violin making.

Great thread by the way everyone who has contributed.

[Bob Gnann]

I'm lucky to have had two nice instruments kind of fall in my lap. The first was a fiddle I found at an estate sale for 95 dollars. Inside the case was a set of brand new strings pencil marked 20 cents, 25 cents, 35 cents each in the original paper wrappers. No I didn't use them, kept them for their history. Also a receipt from 1946 from a long gone RCA radio music store. My guess is it came home from the war with this GI (name is on the receipt), he paid for new strings and never played it. 50 some years later it was mine. Took it a prominent violin shop and he told me it was of eastern European origin (German, Austrian, Czech). Deeper, longer belly plate much like a Stainer I was told. Deeper stronger fiddle tone to match. About 100 - 125 years old. I'd love to know the history of this violin. Maybe someday.
Then a good friend and long time fiddler gifted me his fiddle that was given to him by his great uncle. Again at least hundred years old. Not pretty but a great fiddle sound. He wanted to make sure it would continue to be played. Lucky to have them both.
Great violins? Maybe not. But boy they have that old time fiddle sound that I love!

[mandroid]

My Mix Carbon Mandolin got my friend John to look for a carbon violin . it's finished to look kind of normal for Straddish violins

same fairly weather change resistant benefits ..

[Nick Gellie]

How would such a violin compare, quality wise, with the expectations of a $500-$600 mandolin. $600 buys a lot of mandolin, and one need not spend more to have a forever mandolin.

Pretty comparable in my opinion. I have bought two for less than $300 USD. Set up was excellent. Playability is great. Tone is not quite up there with a $600 USD mandolin. Looks and finish superb. The second one I had to send back. It had a back crack. Otherwise I would have kept it. I have bought three Chinese bows for $30 each. Excellent again in my opinion on par with some of the lower level CODA bows I have - good enough for playing fiddle tunes.

[Caleb]

$600 buys a lot of mandolin, and one need not spend more to have a forever mandolin.

I agree with this. There are gems out there for lower prices. The trouble is finding them. Most shops only have a few mandolins on the wall, if any at all. And buying online lets you try one at a time, which is very hit or miss. This is the trouble with playing a less-than-popular instrument.

I've been lucky enough to visit a few shops with a lot of mandolins and have always been impressed with one or two mid-priced ($600-700 is mid-priced to me) models that stood out. IMO, most mandolins, even the very expensive ones, sound pretty generic to me, so the good ones stand out easily. And if one sounds good when it's new, it will only sound better after years of playing.

[Ranald]

I'm lucky to have had two nice instruments kind of fall in my lap. The first was a fiddle I found at an estate sale for 95 dollars. Inside the case was a set of brand new strings pencil marked 20 cents, 25 cents, 35 cents each in the original paper wrappers. No I didn't use them, kept them for their history. Also a receipt from 1946 from a long gone RCA radio music store. My guess is it came home from the war with this GI (name is on the receipt), he paid for new strings and never played it. 50 some years later it was mine. Took it a prominent violin shop and he told me it was of eastern European origin (German, Austrian, Czech). Deeper, longer belly plate much like a Stainer I was told. Deeper stronger fiddle tone to match. About 100 - 125 years old. I'd love to know the history of this violin. Maybe someday.
Then a good friend and long time fiddler gifted me his fiddle that was given to him by his great uncle. Again at least hundred years old. Not pretty but a great fiddle sound. He wanted to make sure it would continue to be played. Lucky to have them both...

However, there are a great many duds out there. If you're not well educated about violins, evaluating a thrift shop violin with three ancient strings and no bow is nearly impossible. I once got quite a good violin for a low price at a private sale. Two other times, I got mediocre violins that I wouldn't have bought if they were set up and on display, so it's a crap shoot.

Great violins? Maybe not. But boy they have that old time fiddle sound that I love!

I'm with you on that, Bob. As I said previously, if you're after an old-time fiddle sound, you don't necessarily want a great instrument. People have different musical goals. Certainly, a finally crafted instrument, whether fiddle or mandolin, is going to have far better tone than virtually all cheap ones. However, many musicians are more concerned about sharing happy, dance music, as an example, than achieving some ideal of musical perfection.

[Jim Garber]

I'm with you on that, Bob. As I said previously, if you're after an old-time fiddle sound, you don't necessarily want a great instrument. People have different musical goals. Certainly, a finally crafted instrument, whether fiddle or mandolin, is going to have far better tone than virtually all cheap ones. However, many musicians are more concerned about sharing happy, dance music, as an example, than achieving some ideal of musical perfection.

I don't know... Certainly when I was a wanton youth and just starting to play old-time fiddle I played a $100 fiddle with a $25 bow but over time as I played longer I upgraded from one fiddle to another. At one festival I finally traded a 1930s Gibson A mandolin for an excellent bow—unheard of among my esteemed colleagues. It made a huge difference at that point but a few years before that I wouldn't know what to do with it.

There may be among some folks these days who play old time music a sort of junk shop aesthetic along with starving artist chic but after decades of playing, as musicians, the old time musicians I know are certainly not satisfied with a cheapo factory fiddle sound. I think your assumption that old time music requires an old time-sounding fiddle is not true and the highly skilled players of the genre do quite well with excellent instruments. I can agree with you that what an old time player looks for in even a quality instrument is very different from what a classical player would. OTOH any player of folk styles would use different strings and setups than many classical players and the approach to the music is very different.

[catmandu2]

Ya, "fiddle music" is by and large rhythm music. This can be executed on anything: jaw harp, limberjack, bones, "chunka-chunka" on a beater guitar or cigar box fiddle - extreme examples, but for illustration. Hammered dulcimers are excellent tools for dishing out the dance meters, but I don't play them at home due to the "one-dimensionality" of the sound; busking on a street? - excellent. It's the same critique I have of mandolins. These are excellent tools for beating out rhythmic music. This is fun stuff and I play my share of it (albeit, on fiddles and accordions these days). I'm not criticizing folks' musical aesthetic - only that $600 doesn't buy much in terms of tone.

Perfection hasn't anything to do with anything. Only worlds of experience.

[DougC]

As a violin luthier, and mandolin player, I can say welcome to the club! When I'm working on a tune, I find that the mandolin identifies the notes 'more quickly' (or at least accurately) because of the frets. Another aspect of this 'set up' is that the violin bow is very important. Do you know what makes a good bow? It takes years to learn the subtle aspects of bows. It is much easier to find a mandolin pick! Ha, ha.

[Ranald]

I don't know... Certainly when I was a wanton youth and just starting to play old-time fiddle I played a $100 fiddle with a $25 bow but over time as I played longer I upgraded from one fiddle to another. At one festival I finally traded a 1930s Gibson A mandolin for an excellent bow—unheard of among my esteemed colleagues. It made a huge difference at that point but a few years before that I wouldn't know what to do with it.

There may be among some folks these days who play old time music a sort of junk shop aesthetic along with starving artist chic but after decades of playing, as musicians, the old time musicians I know are certainly not satisfied with a cheapo factory fiddle sound. I think your assumption that old time music requires an old time-sounding fiddle is not true and the highly skilled players of the genre do quite well with excellent instruments. I can agree with you that what an old time player looks for in even a quality instrument is very different from what a classical player would. OTOH any player of folk styles would use different strings and setups than many classical players and the approach to the music is very different.

I understand your comments, Jim. However, my point isn't that, to a fiddler, all violins are equal, or that any violin will do. What I'm saying is that people have different aesthetics and different demands. If musicians like the sound that particular musicians were making in the 1930's, for instance, then a good place to start is by learning how they made this music and what with. No one is suggesting they have to do this, or that a person can't play old-time music on better quality fiddles. In fact, the only person to whom I'd recommend a bottom-of-the-market violin is a beginner on a low budget, who doesn't know whether they'll pursue fiddling. Actually, I'd recommend that they rent a violin where that's an option. I don't play on a cheapo violin. I have a decent German-made violin about about 150 years old that my grandfather purchased used as a sailor, circa 1905. I'm sure that it didn't cost him much or he wouldn't have been able to afford it. It's been evaluated at a couple of thousand dollars now, which is still relatively cheap in the violin world (no one would play mine in a symphony orchestra). I also bought myself a much better bow than the viola bow that he played with, though I got a decent trade-in on his bow -- I have no idea whether he knew it wasn't a violin bow.

I have standards. As I said, I wouldn't have purchased my two thrift store fiddles if I'd been able to hear them. I passed one on, the other's a loaner. I too know old-time fiddlers with high quality instruments, and wouldn't turn down a Stradivarius if it were offered to me. On the other hand, I might well turn down a 1910, three-dollar violin from the catalogue if I didn't like its sound. If I can make a comparison to illustrate what I'm saying about aesthetics and old music, there are Baroque orchestras playing period instruments, but that doesn't mean that their members are opposed to orchestras using contemporary instruments, just that they, for whatever reason, aesthetic, educational, or financial, want to produce old-fashioned sounds. Similarly, some people like the sounds of particular older styles of folk or commercial music, and play similar styles, without trying to lock music into a fixed form. However, for romantics who do think that another period's music must be emulated, it's always a mistake to think that any music was in its "pure" form when it was captured on a recording.

[Richard500]

The bow! In grade school (last chair 2nd violin, for ever) I never understood the bow, but also never had any instruction out of school, and dad’s violin which, to use another relative’s frequent comment about many things, was, and is a ‘truck horse’.
Now, we read stuff about vastly-valuable bows, and it is just something I can’t understand from the dynamical side, but it must all be true.
Tell me that’s why I couldn’t play... please.

[maxr]

..Now, we read stuff about vastly-valuable bows, and it is just something I can’t understand from the dynamical side, but it must all be true. Tell me that’s why I couldn’t play... please.

I think it's a matter of having the complete set of equipment of the same capability. If you have a good enough mandolin for your skill level with a decent setup, you're $1-$25 or so away from having all the kit you need to make a good sound and play well - and that $1-$25 is the pick. Give your pick, or a suitable one in the same price range, to a professional mandolinist, and they may well be able to produce all the sounds they want and play as well as they can with that pick and their own mandolin. Now, say you have a $500 fiddle and a $100 bow. Give your bow to a professional classical fiddler and there's a reasonable chance they won't be able to execute the most advanced bow strokes with it or get the range of tones they are expected to produce in their form of music - because that bow just can't do it. Now that carbon fiber bows are available, they could spend $1000 or less on one of those and get a bow that will play 95% or more of the advanced bow strokes, but they'll probably still be looking for a wider range of tones. That bow will probably be fine for most folk players up to pro level (it's what I used as a semipro Scottish band musician, AND they bounce when you drop them or poke an accordion). The pro orchestral player may seek out a wooden bow worth $5000 to $50,000, because bows do have definite abilities and ceilings. Imagine being handed a mandolin pick and finding you can immediately play stuff you thought was well beyond your abilities - that's what a first rate bow can do for you, IF it suits you. It seems to me that old violins can have a very high % of historical value relative to sound (some new violins can be wonderful), but many valuable old bows are worth the money because they enable you to do the hard stuff, and if you're really good they let you do it easier.

[Jim Garber]

Ya, "fiddle music" is by and large rhythm music. This can be executed on anything: jaw harp, limberjack, bones, "chunka-chunka" on a beater guitar or cigar box fiddle - extreme examples, but for illustration.

Aw, come on... I think your generalization is, well, overstated. Rhythm is, of course, part of it but how do you cull out melody in "fiddle music"? And, take a look at this video of one of my favorite classical players. Especially starting at 1:50 or so in the "funhouse" section... Fiddle Music is a lot more melodic than that!

[DougC]

I'll take both sides here. The Irish and Scott's people would "lilt" tunes by making up nonsense words in a rhythmic way when they did not have an instrument handy. There are probably thousands of Irish tunes and a lot of them are not very melodic but it does not matter to the dancers. I think that's what catmandu2 was saying.
On the other hand, just look at either of Hillary's hands...and realize that most anything that could be called a note with a pitch, compared to another IS the basis for melody.
There is a huge range of abilities and knowledge and there are various genre communities out there. Nowadays there is much more 'sharing' and my interest is to help where I can. And thanks for the Hillary video. YIKES can that girl handle a bow. Wow.

Aw, come on... I think your generalization is, well, overstated. Rhythm is, of course, part of it but how do you cull out melody in "fiddle music"? And, take a look at this video of one of my favorite classical players. Especially starting at 1:50 or so in the "funhouse" section... Fiddle Music is a lot more melodic than that!

[catmandu2]

Aw, come on... I think your generalization is, well, overstated. Rhythm is, of course, part of it but how do you cull out melody in "fiddle music"? And, take a look at this video of one of my favorite classical players. Especially starting at 1:50 or so in the "funhouse" section... Fiddle Music is a lot more melodic than that!

And some is not.

I don't know if you'd read any of my prior comments here, but I've been writing about fiddle tunes as a category - also the analogs "dance tunes," "session tunes," or just "tunes" (as in the custom of Irish trad, i.e.). Collectively, this is traditionally music to accompany dance. This also seems to often constitute the beginning mandolin/fiddle repertoire (before you get to Prokofiev, e.g.). So, my contention is that this forms the basis of much fiddle/mndln repertoire - especially for the amateur, hobby, casual player - perhaps even all of it in many cases, from what I've read on the cafe.

Melody is usually a component of (our) dance music. I don't tend to see things black/white, either/or - there are many gradations along the way. Even at 1:50" in the vid there is heavy rhythmic emphasis. For me, this (rhythm) is often what distinguishes fiddling from "violin playing," etc. The distinction is not hard and fast, but often difficult (and unnecessary) to delineate. So, in order to try to make a point, I use caveats like "by and large" and "extreme examples" as history, etymology and culture isn't what I'm wanting to undertake here. Ergo, vis a vis tradition I'm associating fiddling with rhythmic playing compared to violin's melodic emphasis.

And here's my point vis a vis this thread. If a player plays more melodic music (imo) the instrument's sonic quality is of more significance. If one is playing mostly or exclusively fiddle tunes (session tunes, dance tunes, etc) which is generally "fast" music on a mandolin we hear much more attack and percussive effect than on most other instruments. If one aspires to play forms other than fast, dance tunes, etc then I contend that an upgrade may be desirable and the entry-level instrument may not be a "lifetime instrument."

[Bob Gnann]

I had the privilege of playing in a bluegrass band 25 some years ago with fiddle player named Kenny Bennett. He was born down near Beckley, WV sometime around 1930. Raised in a log cabin and learned to play from his family members who learned from their family. You get the idea. Kenny had a good career in security. A very intelligent guy. And a real gentleman.
Playing with Kenny was like taking a step back in time. He played the fiddle crooked in his arm down below his shoulder. He held the bow about 6" down from the frog kinda of in a fist grip. A violin teachers nightmare! Never played what most would consider a great violin. Good, yes, maybe not great. But his energy and love of the old songs more than made up for any perceived short commings from his instrument. We played together for about four years as a group, and a few more years as friends. Standing next to him many times on stage just drove that sound into my brain. To me that's where the fiddlin' begin.

[maxr]

For me, this (rhythm) is often what distinguishes fiddling from "violin playing," etc.

I'd prefer to rephrase that as something like 'classical musicians generally don't groove', although I think that's becoming less true as more classically trained musicians expand their horizons. Good fiddle players usually try to fit the groove into the melody of whatever style they're playing, so that e.g. a rhythm guitarist or drummer has it lit up in neon lights . Four to the bar square rhythm can groove, but in the hands of traditional classical players it often didn't. There are some excellent recorded exceptions, like the Menuhin + Grapelli jazz sessions. Yehudi didn't groove as much as Stephane, but he made a pretty good try at it!

[Jim Garber]

To me rhythm *and* melody are integral parts of all music, along with dynamics and phrasing. It is present in all music in varying degrees. And a fiddler may not choose the same violin or strings or set up as a classical player but that doesn't mean that he or she doesn't a need an instrument with the qualities that make playing a joy. Plus as all of us know here a musical instrument is a medium for expression. For most of us, especially the majority who don't play for dances, the purpose is the joy of playing music and growing with those skills we acquire doing so.

Even at 1:50" in the vid there is heavy rhythmic emphasis. For me, this (rhythm) is often what distinguishes fiddling from "violin playing," etc.

My point exactly: in fact at that passage it is practically only rhythm and this is a classical violin piece, not a fiddle tune.

And here's my point vis a vis this thread. If a player plays more melodic music (imo) the instrument's sonic quality is of more significance. If one is playing mostly or exclusively fiddle tunes (session tunes, dance tunes, etc) which is generally "fast" music on a mandolin we hear much more attack and percussive effect than on most other instruments. If one aspires to play forms other than fast, dance tunes, etc then I contend that an upgrade may be desirable and the entry-level instrument may not be a "lifetime instrument."

All true for your hypothetical player who *only* plays hyperfast fiddle tunes. I highly doubt that person really exists. I also don't see an all-universal "fiddle tune" genre. And, yes, the origin of this music is dance music but historically the same thing can be said about classical music. Most of Bach's S&Ps are named for dances. But, as in classical music, the original function of the music has changed and the same for the tune-based genres. Having sat through some absolutely beautiful solo concerts by the likes of Martin Hayes, Kevin Burke, Pascal Gemme and Bruce Molsky. I think you are giving short shrift to fiddle music. And yes, some of us play for dances but many of us—probably more in the mandolin crowd—do not.

I know you edited this comment out but I would love to hear Tommy Jarrell play "Ave Maria". You may not like his rough edges but he could put his soul 100% into his music and that, to me, is what it is all about.

[David M.]

Just now seeing this thread and there are a lot of wordy posts that honestly I haven't gone through entirely. But it seems there is a lot of speculation about fiddlers, instruments, strings, bows, and fiddle tunes/style.

I've played LOTS of dances using no-name inexpensive but decent German fiddles (and steel strings vs expensive synthetic core that I have a hard time with shuffles with anyway). And I've played LOTS with my real good Arnold Voigt handmade fiddle and good E Reinholdt Schmidt. I've been in OT sessions with really good players who were playing really old no-namers and rank beginners really nice Markneukirchen shop fiddles. Results vary greatly, depending on the fiddler. I've found that everyone has an opinion about this or that, but it comes down to what an individual feels is suitable and helping them grow as a player. Also depends on one's budget or access to instruments. And what they like.

Better violins from an individual maker or a good shop like Schmidt, E Martin, Roth and others have better blocking, graduations, geometry that result in tonal aspects such as better volume or brilliance, a nice powerful sizzle, or well-balanced overall tone. Lots of no-name factory fiddles often lack this, as stated, but I've gotten decent enough tone from several no-namers.

Lot of discussion about gear, which is good and valuable info, but not many have talked about the fiddler. That's the motor behind the mechanism of wood, steel, and horsehair (steel because I use only Helicores or Prims ). I suspect Texas Shorty could draw great tone and style from almost anything. Good stuff, yall.

[catmandu2]

To me rhythm *and* melody are integral parts of all music, along with dynamics and phrasing. It is present in all music in varying degrees. And a fiddler may not choose the same violin or strings or set up as a classical player but that doesn't mean that he or she doesn't a need an instrument with the qualities that make playing a joy. Plus as all of us know here a musical instrument is a medium for expression. For most of us, especially the majority who don't play for dances, the purpose is the joy of playing music and growing with those skills we acquire doing so.



My point exactly: in fact at that passage it is practically only rhythm and this is a classical violin piece, not a fiddle tune.



All true for your hypothetical player who *only* plays hyperfast fiddle tunes. I highly doubt that person really exists. I also don't see an all-universal "fiddle tune" genre. And, yes, the origin of this music is dance music but historically the same thing can be said about classical music. Most of Bach's S&Ps are named for dances. But, as in classical music, the original function of the music has changed and the same for the tune-based genres. Having sat through some absolutely beautiful solo concerts by the likes of Martin Hayes, Kevin Burke, Pascal Gemme and Bruce Molsky. I think you are giving short shrift to fiddle music. And yes, some of us play for dances but many of us—probably more in the mandolin crowd—do not.

Sure you can parse it all. But in so doing you're refuting:

1) the existence of a "fiddle tune" genre

2) that anyone plays primarily fiddle tunes

[Ranald]

I'm enjoying the conversations on this thread, with lots of interesting observations and analyses. It's fun seeing where some of these threads meander after the original post.

[catmandu2]

I'd prefer to rephrase that as something like 'classical musicians generally don't groove

I should have said "rhythmic emphasis" for more clarity.

Ranald, I'm glad you're enjoying it as it's getting off into the weeds here. Personally, I'm trying to make a very simple point about something every instructor I know has always maintained: get the best instrument you can (because ultimately you want to make it sing).

When I was coming up in the 70s quality started at $1K. Today for my daughter it's a $4K bari sax.

If we apply the oft-cited axiom - that mndlns are roughly twice that of comparable guitar, then our $600 mndln is equivalent with the $300 guitar. This price point is not buying much more than the barest.

[DougC]

I'm losing track of what is being discussed here. But my particular 'axe to grind' is in killing 'attitudes' in favor in supporting knowledge.

So here's my take so far:

• There are a lot of serviceable violins* out there at good prices. More than mandolins.
• Most fiddle tunes are about rhythm primarily.
• The player is really the one who puts the music out there.

*Violin bows suffer all kinds of problems and most are poor quality.

What I see as the ideal value right now, is that Glasser carbon fibre violin with a CodaBow.

[Jim Garber]

Sure you can parse it all. But in so doing you're refuting:

1) the existence of a "fiddle tune" genre

2) that anyone plays primarily fiddle tunes

You have just about misread everything I said.

1) There are *multiple* genres that are based on fiddle tunes, not just one over-arching genre. And not all fiddle tunes are rhythmic-centered or even necessarily played fast: jigs, waltzes, hornpipes, schottisches, strathspeys, bulgars, mazurkas, airs, etc.

2) By your definition of a fiddle tunes as fast music, yes I would say that is mostly true. Perhaps there are some folks who only want to play breakdowns but that is certainly no one I know.

[catmandu2]

You have just about misread everything I said.

1) There are *multiple* genres that are based on fiddle tunes, not just one over-arching genre. And not all fiddle tunes are rhythmic-centered or even necessarily played fast: jigs, waltzes, hornpipes, schottisches, strathspeys, bulgars, mazurkas, airs, etc.

Dances all - i.e., rhythmic forms (save for perhaps airs) that are typically played with dance meter in mind if not foot; in adherence within the tradition, as opposed to being artfully developed into what I would generally term "western art music" (commonly under the rubric "classical"). Of course, there are always exceptions. Composers have long borrowed from the folk/dance traditions.

What I awkwardly called "fast" is a reference to session/dance tunes. As opposed "song" forms and "lyrical" styles more associated with non-dance based structure and tempos.

The point is, when notes are strung together in such a rhythmic fashion, there is less opportunity to hear the character and quality of each note because it's quickly followed by successive notes.