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Thread: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

  1. #126
    Registered User DougC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    I was responding to the idea of a 'complete musician' as I understand it. Not sure everyone is understanding this notion of the 'modern' musician.

    What is the measure of a great musician nowadays? I can be awestruck at a performance by a 'folk fiddler' (fill in the blanks..). But maybe his/her 'composition' is a bit lacking in terms of 'theme development' or understanding of chordal cadence (for example).

    And I understand the idea mentioned here, that music is like language and you'd 'better get the accent right' and understand the nuance of the style if you are playing from just the 'dots'.

    So I personally use a double standard. 1- best in class award, 2- best overall in all fields, including jazz and classical. (It's not possible but it works as a thought provoking idea).

    I'm not sure I'd venture to compare Hillary Hahn's performance of some Bach Partitas to Chris Thile's performance of the same. But they are easily available. And why is Chris playing that stuff? This is the 'modern' situation.
    Last edited by DougC; Mar-18-2021 at 5:36pm.
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  3. #127
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by DougC View Post
    I was responding to the idea of a 'complete musician' as I understand it. .
    I feel that perhaps I can clarify a bit, if I am going to use the phrase.

    My idea of the "complete musician" is the musician that has no more improvement to make. Obviously it is a fiction. No one musician is "complete". There is always more that can be done to improve.

    So in the context of this thread, the complete musician can read music, sight read, memorize music for performance, as well as learn and play by ear, and improvise. The complete musician is equally comfortable playing in all keys, in open and closed positions. There are other important tasks regarding rhythm, playing in time, and skills related to playing with others, backing a soloist, harmonizing, jamming, performance, etc.

    Obviously the complete musician is a fiction, a goal, something to help one answer the question "what could I work on now?" Nobody is the complete musician.

    One intended take away is that none of these skills exclude the others. That no skill is diminished by developing the other skills. Learning to read does not reduce one's ability to improvise, or to learn by ear. I am weak in a particular skill due to lack of working on that particular skill.

    So, to place it in context. I came up with the idea of The Complete Musician after hearing a talk by Dr. John Mortensen Steinway Artist and Professor of Piano entitled Ten Things Serious Pianists Do. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFrhar5XexU I happened to have a copy of The Compleat Angler open on my desk at the time.

    Caveats: The concept of the Complete Musician is necessarily modern, because I came up with it only a few years ago. As to those particular musical cultures and musics around the world and throughout time that have no written music, OK, if there is no music to read I guess you don't have to learn to read it. But if there is a written music, there are advantages to learning how to read it. The complete musician would. Those musics that only have solo traditions, I guess you don't need to learn how to play them with others, eh?

    I hope this is helpful.

    The musician I have met that comes closest to the complete musician, in my mind, is Jacob Reuven. He is an inspiration to me. But even he likely has some thin threads in his weave. I would have no idea where.

    https://www.mandomontreal.com/en/tip...arm-up-routine
    Last edited by JeffD; Mar-18-2021 at 6:20pm.
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  4. #128

    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Jeff, thank you for offering those caveats.

    Afraid I have not much to contribute on the question - I've no particular thoughts on what is better or worse, best or worst - from a musical standpoint. Only that I am glad there is still diversity in the 'shrinking' world we inhabit - I think it's worth preserving. As I said on a related thread - it's the absence of dialectic that gets us into trouble.

    I'm a jazz freak, but I love to play trad - the very old stuff. I've posted videos on our fiddle forum of new music (modern approaches) on hardingfele for example, but currently it's the 'pure drop' I'm after on hdgfl, gaelic harp, flamenco gtr, TCM.. I certainly wouldn't be able to do this without youtube. In my neck of the woods I've not located another wire guzheng player. And the harp society says they don't know of any other wire harpers in state (although I'm guessing there has to be at least a few).

    * what is that crazy thing they say - diversity in unity or unity in diversity? I love variety in life - probably more accurate to say I'm addicted to novelty. My theory is that jazz is America's great contribution to the world.
    Last edited by catmandu2; Mar-18-2021 at 8:01pm.

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  6. #129
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    We are better educated nowadays. Not only has the internet 'educated us'. But music schools now teach many aspects of music never considered in the folk world.
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  7. #130

    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    With jazz (and of course R&R, symphonic, etc) all over increasingly everything in the world, it's precarious for folk cultures everywhere to survive. I agree with McKenna who quipped that we are 'fated to the consequences of our own taste' (paraphr) and that aesthetic principles must guide us, if humanity has a chance (talking long range picture here )

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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    One can take a pessimistic view or optimistic view. I think it is a mix of feelings for me. I do know that people love their music very much and the musical genres have a remarkable way of 'being genres' (for lack of a better term).
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  9. #132

    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Well said. Sound is much more than what we think it is. But much information has been lost as well. We've replaced it with our new forms of information. Have we gained more than we've lost?

  10. #133
    Registered User DougC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    How can you measure gains and losses?

    After watching "Ten Things Serious Pianists Do" on YouTube. (Thanks Jeff) It became apparent that not everyone is, or wants to be a professional musician. Personally, while watching this piano professor, I became very aware of my 'weaknesses' in musicianship. That's O.K. I have my goals and I want to achieve some things before I die.

    However the video also reminded me that much of being a 'complete musician', even as a mandolin student at a fancy music school is not necessary.

    In fact many involved in folk music don't need much of 'college level' musical training. They have more focused interests and do just fine in that realm. (Focused on memory instead of reading notes for example.) They still have to work very hard at their craft however.

    In these 'modern' times, folk musicians now are, or should be aware of aspects of music that can help them to understand what they are doing.

    See if this college professors list applies to you.
    • get better at memorizing tunes
    • get better at reading music
    • listen and study great music
    • know about the musicians
    • know about history
    • record yourself and critique
    • practice time - more discipline about your schedule
    • go to concerts
    • scales and arpeggios
    • improvise Know how tunes are made
    • talk with peers and strengthen your determination to improve


    I think any fiddler would agree that this list applies now and at any time in history.
    Last edited by DougC; Mar-19-2021 at 11:22am.
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  12. #134

    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    I don't pose it as a calculus, but rather in the tradition of examining the dynamics of succession.

    For example, the wire harp (clarsach, clairseach) tradition entirely died out a few hundred years ago (presumably due to many social and political factors that we won't appraise here). The result is that we do not know how it was played. There is much speculation of course.


    Cultures that have gone before us had relationship with nature and mind that are largely lost to moderns.

  13. #135

    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by DougC View Post
    How can you measure gains and losses? I don't see it either way.
    FWIW, I was responding to this.

    On the rest, once again I remind that there are many functions of music. Applying our standard universally leaves out the needs, activities and goals of others phenomenologically. For example, entertainment and performance is not a universal goal of music.

  14. #136

    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Let me see if I can make another point. On bullet - 'Know about history': What does this mean? What history? All musical history? Much of 'history' is lost, or simply interpreted through modern lens. Take for example the case of wire guzheng: it's increasingly rare as the aesthetic of modern guzheng playing and repertoire does away altogether the style, technique, repertoire, aesthetic and perhaps even function of wire guzheng playing. The reason usually given for the succession of modern nylon guzheng (as well nylon-strung over wire harp) is to better approach the Western aesthetic and repertoire with the instrument. One consequence is as I previously noted.

    Is this a 'better' or 'worse' condition?

    With only a partial knowledge of history, then, this means that we are necessarily selective about the history and knowledge we access. Fine. That's human. My point is - much is lost in this process, particularly in the arts and esoterica. We rationalize this by assuming that 'our' ways are always better.

    Our assumptions are rarely 'complete'

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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by DougC View Post
    How can you measure gains and losses?

    After watching "Ten Things Serious Pianists Do" on YouTube. (Thanks Jeff) It became apparent that not everyone is, or wants to be a professional musician. Personally, while watching this piano professor, I became very aware of my 'weaknesses' in musicianship. That's O.K. I have my goals and I want to achieve some things before I die..

    I look at it similarly. I have a going career in engineering which I like and which consumes me, and a few other things going on, so music is and has always been an avocation with me. I have no professional aspirations, but I do have a specific, well thought out, one concise sentence goal. I wrote an essay about that goal a while ago, and looking it over I agree with myself, though I might have written it differently. If anyone has the slightest interest in my goals and my process, it is here.

    But...

    The questions really is what should/could I be doing if I am going to be taking this music playing thing seriously.

    Of course I can't get everything done, and of course I am not going to ever be amazing at it, but it is always true that I can be better, closer to my goal, and that there are things I can do to get better, and those things are not mysterious or outside my reach, and those things are not unpleasant activities anyway. (Very often I will pick up my mandolin with no urge to play any particular tune but an urge to feel my fingers moving on the strings and pretty music coming out. I open my marked up Wohlfahart Sixty Studies, or any of quite a few of such books, and work on exercises prescribed by my coach.) There are always things I can be doing.
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  17. #138
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    Let me see if I can make another point. On bullet - 'Know about history': What does this mean?...
    The specific context is in Dr. Mortensen's video. And it is at least a starting point.

    With only a partial knowledge of history, then, this means that we are necessarily selective about the history and knowledge we access. Fine. That's human. My point is - much is lost in this process, particularly in the arts and esoterica. We rationalize this by assuming that 'our' ways are always better.

    Our assumptions are rarely 'complete'.
    True enough. I don't know about the indictment that we assume our ways are always better. But I will concede that we do fill in a lot of the blanks with assumptions whose veracity is lost to time. As you say:
    Cultures that have gone before us had relationship with nature and mind that are largely lost to moderns.
    Which is a clever way of saying we can't know everything perfectly about the past. Still it is worth the effort.
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  18. #139

    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    The specific context is in Dr. Mortensen's video. And it is at least a starting point.

    True enough. I don't know about the indictment that we assume our ways are always better. But I will concede that we do fill in a lot of the blanks with assumptions whose veracity is lost to time. As you say:

    Which is a clever way of saying we can't know everything perfectly about the past. Still it is worth the effort.
    My point is that 'history' is always abstract, a modern lens upon the past. I'm not sure that it's 'clever' - rather more a critique of modern methods. 'Perfection' hasn't anything to do with anything.

    I read the beginning of your blog. May I share briefly my experience here? I think it has some relevance to the matter at hand.

    With my voracious appetite for varied sounds and experiences, I too struggled finding some sense of directionality or method, etc. After 50 years of playing - but mostly the last 20 exploring - I've come to find that my very essence is musical, and that whatever expression I make, musically and otherwise, is valid. The only arbiter of significance and meaning is me. Maybe it takes a while to attain this equanimity and alternative to external validation - it certainly took me a long time to find.

    I believe this self-reliance of musical aesthetic is often important for the individual to risk music-making (as opposed music reiteration, recitation, etc). It may not get you into conservatory, but it's a method to understanding the self. I should also mention that I've had much success in music-making with others, and evoking music from others - many of whom are afflicted with preconceived notions of how they should sound to the degree that it impedes their own musicality or creative engagement with music altogether. It's one of my avocations.

    *I should at least clarify that this in no way means that I'm immune to feelings of self doubt and failure, or that I'm not always striving to learn and improve my playing and enhance my creative engagement.
    Last edited by catmandu2; Mar-19-2021 at 2:51pm.

  19. #140
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    I've come to find that my very essence is musical, and that whatever expression I make, musically and otherwise, is valid. The only arbiter of significance and meaning is me. Maybe it takes a while to attain this equanimity and alternative to external validation - it certainly took me a long time to find.
    That, too me, is a valid alternative. To me it seems a little lonely, in that, to take it the full way, being musically intelligible to others, if it occurs at all, would occur by accident. But that is a natural consequence of the differences in our goals.

    I believe this self-reliance of musical aesthetic is often important for the individual to risk music-making (as opposed music reiteration, recitation, etc). It may not get you into conservatory, but it's a method to understanding the self.
    That too, to me is a valid choice. And can be quite fun. I am not sure about it being a method to understanding the self. Philosophers a whole lot smarter than me have argued this kind of thing back and forth for a long time. The extent to which, if at all, we transcend our social input. Is the self more than social construct, our avitar in the social game. But this is for another thread.
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by DougC View Post
    One can take a pessimistic view or optimistic view. I think it is a mix of feelings for me. I do know that people love their music very much and the musical genres have a remarkable way of 'being genres' (for lack of a better term).
    Yes. It can be a mixed bag.

    The southwestern part of Pennsylvania used to be the home of a certain style of tunes, A unique mix of Irish and German roots, with fiddle and fife both in the mix. Documented by musicologist Samuel Bayard. Relevant here is that this tradition is mostly gone since the late 80s, because of the resurgence of folk and traditional music generally. Those who developed a strong interest in traditional music often pursued things like The Fiddler's Fake Book and available recordings and such, more than "learning from their elders" and were more likely to adopt the more general traditional music, rather than the specific and unique traditions locally.

    So something died because something else was born. Both optimistic and pessimistic at the same time.
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  22. #142

    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    That, too me, is a valid alternative. To me it seems a little lonely, in that, to take it the full way, being musically intelligible to others, if it occurs at all, would occur by accident. But that is a natural consequence of the differences in our goals.



    That too, to me is a valid choice. And can be quite fun. I am not sure about it being a method to understanding the self. Philosophers a whole lot smarter than me have argued this kind of thing back and forth for a long time. The extent to which, if at all, we transcend our social input. Is the self more than social construct, our avitar in the social game. But this is for another thread.
    On 'loneliness.' I posted a vid on such recently in an adjacent thread (Alienation and Creativity). There is most definitely a risk when going against consensus or established forms and expressions. For example, most people hate (and I do mean loathe, detest, abhor, despise, feel revulsion and hostility toward) the music I love most. This being a music-based forum, I used to carry a signature with examples of what I find to be the most expressive and inspiring (modern) music, in the hopes of engendering creative discussion (but I relented as it was evident that not many if any resonate with this). Of course it's not for everyone. Every player/listener into avant/experiemental music has said the same thing to me: it's a given that it's 'outside' and that our families, friends and neighbors hate it.

    But that's Art - it inherently subsists in the place of novelty (albeit, not always to that extreme of course). And that is often the burden shouldered by the artist - who often dwells in direct confrontation to the paradigmatic social environment. Some are called to it, some are not.
    .
    On the latter point: the self-validation and awareness of our innate musical essences is, both, a result and antecedent of understanding. Taken from your blog post (I hope that you don't mind) - 'It is true what they told you, if you don’t know where you are going it doesn’t matter how you get there.'

    The alternative here is of course, 'no matter where you go, there ya are' or 'without knowing from whence you came..'


    But I also like traditional forms, as I'd mentioned. In fact, I like to find value in everything.

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    Registered User DougC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Whose' history indeed. When I copied the notion from the video I was seeing the similarities in classical piano history with Irish fiddler's history. But as you point out, many things disappear at the advent of 'modernity' or whatever larger movement is made, overwhelming the smaller. I was also thinking that Traditional music, as we know it, is quite valuable because it holds so much of local customs. e.g. food, ceremonies, dancing. Have you seen the book called, "Lies My Teacher Told Me "? It is not just cultural assumptions but direct omissions that are involved. Yikes.
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  24. #144

    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by DougC View Post
    Whose' history indeed. When I copied the notion from the video I was seeing the similarities in classical piano history with Irish fiddler's history. But as you point out, many things disappear at the advent of 'modernity' or whatever larger movement is made, overwhelming the smaller. I was also thinking that Traditional music, as we know it, is quite valuable because it holds so much of local customs. e.g. food, ceremonies, dancing. Have you seen the book called, "Lies My Teacher Told Me "? It is not just cultural assumptions but direct omissions that are involved. Yikes.
    Cultures used music and art ritually for everything - healing, sacrament, etc, and generally everyone was involved in one way or another. Archaic cultures understood the meaning of everything, and interacted with phenomena dynamically. We have quite a different relationship with phenomena. I'm afraid we've minimized the phenomena of sound to accommodate our modern functions for it. Yet, as you say, there is something within us, still, that resonates with that vestigial potency.

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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Coming back to a mundane level on 'fiddle world', one difference that will hit anyone who plays fiddle is the cost of a really good set of strings - $80 for say Evah Pirazzi or Obligato. Cellists (sitting down, guys?) $240.

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  27. #146
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by maxr View Post
    Coming back to a mundane level on 'fiddle world', one difference that will hit anyone who plays fiddle is the cost of a really good set of strings - $80 for say Evah Pirazzi or Obligato. Cellists (sitting down, guys?) $240.
    Thanks Maxr, I did think we were getting a little 'far afield'.

    I worked for a company that sells violin strings. And I remember a set of Dominant's costing $20. I think that many companies had decided to 'up the price' in order to seem 'more valuable' than others. A marketing scam if there ever was one. To be fair however the market had grown to world wide markets and they could demand what ever they wanted. The exchange rate among the Euro and Dollar became a factor as well.
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  28. #147

    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Ya sorry for the anthropological rant. Only wanted to provide some perspective, not derail the thread.

  29. #148

    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by maxr View Post
    Coming back to a mundane level on 'fiddle world', one difference that will hit anyone who plays fiddle is the cost of a really good set of strings - $80 for say Evah Pirazzi or Obligato. Cellists (sitting down, guys?) $240.
    Folks buy/sell used strings on the bass 'fiddle' site (TB) to help deal with this - buying a set of $300 strings and finding that you don't like them.

  30. #149
    Registered User DougC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    The good news is that it is much harder to replace strings on a mandolin.

    Can I nudge the topic a bit?
    Classical players are fussier than folk players. Until the folk fiddlers/mandolin players are 'advanced' level. Then they have the patience to understand the small things. This 'slow' pace drove me nuts.
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Like classical violinists do not use fine tuners, or if they do it is only on the e string. While fiddlers, often enough, use fine tuners on all the strings. The claim is that one can tell if the string is directly connected to the tail piece or not - or more precisely, only the more advanced and cultured and refined violinists have the perception and discernment and sensitivity to detect how much better a string direct to tail piece sounds and the refinement to care about it.

    I myself, having spent much more time in the fiddle world than in the violin world, appreciate an instrument that is in tune, and if it takes fine tuners to get there, so be it.

    Some of the really amazing violinists I have heard can get really amazing tone - and I think there may be a more things involved than merely eschewing fine tuners.
    Last edited by JeffD; Mar-20-2021 at 2:38pm.
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