Mandolin world vs fiddle world

[catmandu2]

I've been addressing this in the context of the idea of a $600 mandolin being suitable as a "forever mandolin." If a person wants to go beyond bluegrass, or dance tunes - perhaps air, pibroch and other "slower" forms (where individual notes are more easily discernible) - my assertion is that one is likely to desire an instrument with more of a voice, greater sustain, balance, responsiveness, timbre. If playing "slower" tempos, greater dynamics are typically deployed to make the music succeed; the entry-level mndln will serve to be an impediment to successful music-making (and development of the player) as it is much harder to impart the necessary qualities for effective musicality (more than just "the notes").

[maxr]

All true for your hypothetical player who *only* plays hyperfast fiddle tunes. I highly doubt that person really exists.

They seem to exist in numbers in Irish music sessions here in UK, despite Martyn Hayes' excellent efforts to show us there's more to Irish fiddle tunes than speed. The fiddle slapping contest is by no means dead, more's the pity

[catmandu2]

I hope I was able to communicate what I meant. I wasn't thinking "hyper-fast" at all. I'm not thinking in hypotheticals at all.

[DougC]

To get back to the original idea here: Mandolin World and the Violin World, (as I'm in both, my wife certainly classical only violin world and me a guitar, fiddle, mandolin guy,) seem to be two versions of musical education, culture, and histories. The effort to consider all musics with respect has been challenging and 'eye-opening' and generally polite. It seems right now, for me at least that one has to be careful in describing aspects of composing, 'theory', and improvisation by using the word 'simple' or 'basic' to folk musicians. The words are often misunderstood and I avoid them, as I've got the scars to show. Ha, ha.

[David M.]

Ya, "fiddle music" is by and large rhythm music. This can be executed on anything: jaw harp, limberjack, bones, "chunka-chunka" on a beater guitar or cigar box fiddle - extreme examples, but for illustration.

I like to think of it as DRIVE or PULSE. Yeah, it's "rhythmic", but in old time music there's a tune that needs to be delivered in a driving, danceable, waltzing, or lilting manner. Or with a lilt in "English tunes" (as my friend in KY Lewis Lamb called all tunes Scottish, Irish, or English - ha). But Lewis said something once that stuck with me about delivering an old time tune and changed my method totally. He described the "taters" (down kitty, up kitty) bowing with the emphasis on the down, less on the up, and to incorporate that bowing rhythm throughout old time reels and breakdowns and it'll give that danceable drive. And he's right for the most part. I try to show this to people whenever I'm asked about playing or bowing.

It makes a huge difference and these types of nuances to me is what separates a fiddler from a violinist who is only reading dots from a book. Compare playing "Too Old To Marry" with only the notes vs adding that bowing and there's one that will stand out as a fiddle tune that has a danceable, true fiddle style. And speaking of style... That's a WHOLE 'nuther thread that'll surely turn colorful, so we'll save that.

[catmandu2]

... That's a WHOLE 'nuther thread that'll surely turn colorful, so we'll save that.

That 'nuther thread is currently being bandied over on The Session

[maxr]

It makes a huge difference and these types of nuances to me is what separates a fiddler from a violinist who is only reading dots from a book.

Ooooh goody, another can of worms! IMO playing by ear does not make you a more funky citizen, or confer a higher degree of fiddlerishness, than someone who is 'just' (Gaspo!) reading dots from a book. Scottish Dance bands are undoubtedly 'folk' bands. These bands often have 3 or 4 A4 size books of tune sets - often 4 tunes to a page (usually one dance) and up to 100 pages in a book, thats...a lot of tunes. Most play for three different nuanced types of dancing (also eating dressing and driving, below), each of which has its own rhythmic requirements - and you'll play some of the same tunes for them all. Here are some gross generalisations:

1) R.S.C.D.S. - 'classical' Art style Scottish dancing, very 'strict tempo', very stylised to suit the dancers, who are very particular about speed and thythm. It's always too slow or too fast for their liking but usually fairly sedate, Strathspeys should be Tai Chi slow. Silver family sedans with the odd Jaguar (golfer), they eat triangular sandwiches with the crusts cut off, Marks and Spencers cup cakes and a nice cup of tea. Sensible dresses or kilt and blouse, gents kilt, shirt and tie, dancing pumps. Dancing - why wouldn't you? Cost - "Och, isn't it terrible these days"?
2) 'Reeling' - Highland Ball style dancing to either driving tunes (Reel of 51st, Eightsome Reel etc), Scottish tunes with 'lift' (Hamilton House etc), Gaelic waltzes and others. Dancing compulsory. This is Range Rover style dancing, least that's what's in the car park. Coronation Chicken and chocolate roll with wine. Ladies - ball gowns, flat shoes, alice bands, Gents - black dinner suit, cummerbund, bow tie, handmade shoes to suit. Cost - don't ask, it's a charity ball, they pay more for the evening than you'll get.
3) 'Ceilidh' dancing - village hall/wedding/party informal dancing - tunes either driving or with 'lift', speed depends on age of the audience these days, from middling to martial art speed. Scottish West Coast style plays with more 'lift' like pipers (long notes emphasised by drawing them out till they scream), East Coast style has less. Rusty trucks through to Bentleys, potato chips through to Nouvelle Cuisine, Dress - highly recommended, it can get physical. Dancing? - oh, go on then. Cost - eh?

Fiddlers often sit in with several bands as needed, and the bands don't all play the same tunes in the same keys or the same order. You play the mighty finish chord of a tune set (Ta-RAAAAAaaaaaaaaa!), the band leader says something like "jigs 83", and you have maybe 30 seconds to get the right book on the stand at the right page, and the right way up, before the mighty opening chord pof the next dance. As a fiddler you then often have to sight read some of the tunes in front of maybe 50 to 600 dancers, with no safety net. Just to make sure there's no pressure, you're also expected to play the tunes in the correct rhythmical style for whichever of the three variety of dancers is in front of you, and the dots on the page can't and don't convey the subtleties of how you do that. If you're lucky, you're sitting between two piano accordions and the audience can't hear a note you're playing. The bad news is, the band leader is one of those piano accordions, is listening critically, and has the gig money.

There are probably equivalents in jazz and other forms of music. Now, we were talking about about 'a violinist who is only reading dots from a book...'

It's good here, isn't it

[mandroid]

Violins are made in sizes .. 1/2, 3/4 & 4/4..

[Doug Brock]

Violins are made in sizes .. 1/2, 3/4 & 4/4..

And 1/32, 1/16, 1/10, 1/8, 1/4, and 7/8!

[CBFrench]

Since lately I've been wondering should I, could I ...and have been looking at violins/fiddle I saw the word "fiddle" in the post thinking alright I might possibly pick up a thing or two...well my question has been answered

[DougC]

Maxr's post is hilarious. And he makes the point very clear. Dot's are only a reminder for the player to make the music.

Also if one ventures very far into the world of modern violinists, you'll discover new music for virtuoso violinists that is very rhythmic. I've seen some concerts by the St. Paul Chamber Orchestra that leave you wondering, "how could anyone write that down"? Moreover, how could they even read that stuff?

[Ranald]

Since lately I've been wondering should I, could I ...and have been looking at violins/fiddle I saw the word "fiddle" in the post thinking alright I might possibly pick up a thing or two...well my question has been answered

If we haven't totally confused you by now, you're doing well.

[DougC]

I'm leaving the fiddle players to speak about their classical violin kin.

[JeffD]

Or mandolinners to speak about their classical mandolin kin.

[JeffD]

To get back to the original idea here: Mandolin World and the Violin World, (as I'm in both, my wife certainly classical only violin world and me a guitar, fiddle, mandolin guy,) seem to be two versions of musical education, culture, and histories. The effort to consider all musics with respect has been challenging and 'eye-opening' and generally polite. It seems right now, for me at least that one has to be careful in describing aspects of composing, 'theory', and improvisation by using the word 'simple' or 'basic' to folk musicians. The words are often misunderstood and I avoid them, as I've got the scars to show. Ha, ha.

I entirely agree with you regarding the challenge. My experience is that there are prejudices on both sides of the divide as well. The classical player who can only follow the dots and is afraid of improvisation is as much a stereotype as the traditional player who can't read music or thinks playing in tune is a choice. While stereotypes may have perhaps a brush with truth, one misses a lot in using them as a "stand in" for the full complexity of the musical traditions, and the full complexity of those who participate in those musical traditions. And there are individuals from both sides of the divide that seem to step in it more than somewhat.

One glaring example is the several genres of traditional and folk music in which improvisation and taking "breaks" is generally not done. Where ornamenting or decorating a tune may be fine but the general trend is to play the tune itself. Folks who have been playing these musics for years and years, but are not comfortable with improv, or "composing in real time in front of other musicians" as a friend of mine describes it.

Another is the very intriguing interleaved history of musics on either side. For example the old time fiddle tune war horse tune "Fisher's Hornpipe" is said by some historians to have been composed by Johann Christian Fischer (1733-1800), a friend of Mozart's, as a fiddle exercise.

My thought is that since there are mandolins, violins, and guitars for that matter, on both sides of the classical-folk divide, it should be distinguished from the very real divide between mandolin world and violin world, whicht address differences in what the instruments are capable of, and how they are approached, and yea there is another separation between the "classical" music genres and the folk/traditional genres. The two dichotomies are equally worth exploring, with respect and devotion and appreciation that an excellent musician is an excellent musician.

[Jim Garber]

As with all methods and means of classification or categorization, there are fuzzy areas. I think the basis for everything is the instrument, whether it is a violin or a mandolin, for instance. Hang it on the wall and you probably don't have a clue what kind of music it will play. As one poster so wisely said, most of it is in the player.

Each of these genres have certain rules which demarcate it as a specific type of music. Some players may break those rules or at least break the expectations of those who feel bound by those rules, and it may pleasantly or unpleasantly surprise us. These days there are even more hybrids: classical players cross over to folk genres and vice versa. IMHO it is all to the good. On one hand I love the tradition and playing music within a particular framework, trying to reproduce the melodies and rhythms. OTOH I am equally entertained by breaking the boundaries, playing music of other lands and styles. It makes for a true richness in the acoustic landscape.

So we all gravitate to one instrument or the other (or maybe both or others). And we play what we can to get the sounds we can and progress musically the best we all can. I find musical exploration, whether it is to play a variety of styles or dig into the cultural aspects of the music, entirely enriching and inspiring.

[mandroid]

a Friend just got a half size violin . the kid training size ..


3/4 Bass Viols are popular in bands .

[maxr]

One glaring example is the several genres of traditional and folk music in which improvisation and taking "breaks" is generally not done.

I wonder whether that's more of a cultural thing depending on where you are? You don't often hear a player taking an improvisatory break in a trad Irish session in say UK, yet that music's quite closely related to Bluegrass, and there are many fine Irish players who could easily do so. It doesn't happen much at any variety of UK folk session I've been to - but then I haven't been to many bluegrass sessions here.

[Mainer73]

Having played Irish fiddle for over 20 years, I would hardly call them closely related. In fact it always grinds my gears a bit when people make too much of any relationship between the two.
I do enjoy grassing on the fiddle but it's do definitely a distinctly different music form.

[catmandu2]

My guess is maxr was thinking - related etiologically. But yes, after tunes and traditions emigrated to America from the Isles, they mixed with elements unique to the Americas (blues, gospel, minstrelsy, and whatever else was going on in the states then..

[DougC]

O.K. I think we are at the point where we discuss the reasoning behind the Mandolin Cafe Forum topics. Right? Different tribes of mandolin playing interests?

[Jim Garber]

I wonder whether that's more of a cultural thing depending on where you are? You don't often hear a player taking an improvisatory break in a trad Irish session in say UK, yet that music's quite closely related to Bluegrass, and there are many fine Irish players who could easily do so. It doesn't happen much at any variety of UK folk session I've been to - but then I haven't been to many bluegrass sessions here.

One glaring example is the several genres of traditional and folk music in which improvisation and taking "breaks" is generally not done. Where ornamenting or decorating a tune may be fine but the general trend is to play the tune itself. Folks who have been playing these musics for years and years, but are not comfortable with improv, or "composing in real time in front of other musicians" as a friend of mine describes it.

As noted by JeffD's comment: the improvising in an Irish, Scottish, Québécois, Cape Breton, etc. session occurs on where the player inserts ornaments and that is usually rarely exactly the same with each iteration of the tune. Irish sessions around here (US) usually have sets of tunes played 3 times each. Not sure if it works the same in other geographic areas and not sure about other celtic-influences music. In old time tune swaps rare are the medleys and the improvisation comes with slight changes in the rhythmic pulse or bowing variations inducing subtle phrasing differences. Bluegrass probably takes its cues from more of the improvising musics like blues, swing, and jazz and soloists take off on the melodic lines. But, as I mentioned above, these a re pretty much codified in each established jam session and the regular players who attend these know the rules.

[JeffD]

I wonder whether that's more of a cultural thing depending on where you are? You don't often hear a player taking an improvisatory break in a trad Irish session in say UK, yet that music's quite closely related to Bluegrass, and there are many fine Irish players who could easily do so. It doesn't happen much at any variety of UK folk session I've been to - but then I haven't been to many bluegrass sessions here.

Bluegrass is much more related to Old Time (Southern Appalachian) than traditional Irish, and yet there too, Old Time also not very improvisational.

The difference is that Bluegrass is different. Many differences, many different threads on this topic. Just mentioning the topic is sure to bring out some controversy. I will mention a few big differences between Bluegrass and the musics it came from, and I will stay with the fairly obvious and least controversial, though avoiding controversy here might be a fools game.

Bluegrass comes from a performance tradition. It is a stage act, or wants to be. It is a radio show or a CD or yearns to be such. It is more or less designed for performance. Even though there are many examples of informal bluegrass jams, I will be bold and say that the informal jam is not its home. Bluegrass is a lot like rock and roll in this performance aspect.

Old Time comes from a playing on your porch tradition, and though it is often enough played on stage, that is not its home. Its home is with working people who need music to restore their humanity taken by a soul draining job. Similarly with Traditional Irish, which though performed enough, really is not performance oriented, but pub session oriented. A pub session is generally not a stage show - the musicians are playing more or less for each other, and that there are folks listening is not central to the experience.
Bluegrass emphasizes the player. It encourages scintillating improvisational breaks that show off one's abilities. Its about demonstrating your chops. Again a bit like rock. OT and trad Irish are, in my experience, about the tune itself, about playing the tune and making the tune sound good, and enjoying the sound of the tune. Self expression is not predominant, playing expressively is. (Huge difference.) In this way old time and trad Irish are a bit like classical.

Yes there are many fine players who do multiple genres, both Bluegrass and Old Time and traditional Irish, and even perhaps classical. They can be seen in many and various types of jam sessions. As well there are musicians who dig into one genre and stay there for its rewards. Some festivals feature both Bluegrass and Old Time. It is not uncommon.

And yet within each genre, the players for the most part stick to the traditions of that genre. Mandolin players know (or should know) not to chop when playing with Old Time or Trad Irish, for example. An orthodox old time jam will be nervous upon seeing a new mandolinner sit in, for fear the mandolinner will "bluegrass all over the music", and, on the other side, Ron Thomason of the Bluegrass band Dry Branch Fire Squad, once said something to the effect that Old Time picking was as close as you could get to music without knowing how to play it. (I am sure tongue in cheek.)

I think these distinctions transcend country or local musical environment. They are distinctions between genres, wherever they are played.

I have only scratched the surface, and it is entirely based on my direct experience. You can find many threads that explicate these things better than I have, and of course folks will express it differently or contradict what I am saying. And that is ok. IMO and YMMV and all that.

For more on this I strongly recommend this video: https://www.amazon.com/Time-Chris-Va.../dp/B004H83LZM

[boissec]

In case you haven't seen this... it's fascinating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8-rOvWeV8k

The thing about violins is that they differ so widely with regard to response, tone, volume, and provenance. The "arms race" that viols went through to be louder and louder as audiences and concert halls grew, focused the great makers on building better and better behaving instruments. The other thing that I love is shopping for violins. I have learned more during my shopping excursions than any other activity WRT the differences in violins. Most of the time, I don't buy anything. But having a dealer pull violins out of the vault 20 at a time (depending on price range of course) and spending an afternoon playing each one in a process of elimination is super fun. Often, price is more about provenance (aka, collectability) than tone. For years, my main instrument was a no-name factory instrument that had been re-graduated and sounds fabulous. I paid more for my bow than that instrument! Also, once in a while, if you develop a relationship with a dealer, they will let you play something very high end... 6-7 figures. It is truly astonishing the difference. Anyway, just rambling...

[DougC]

I've done the expensive violin trial too. It was an amazing experience.

My bow costs more than my violin too.


The presenters in the video are quite charming. But I checked him out at Maestro Net violin forum, and some highly respected violin makers say his ideas are 'way off'. Too bad, in the video they seem like such nice people. (Living in their own little world and then bringing it out like snake oil salesmen.) To be fair, they are very correct in listening and describing sounds. However they hear what they want to hear. Others have tried his methods and had found they did not work.
Oh well.

Can you read the Latin below? It is from Leopold Mozart's book. People have not changed in 200 years.