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Thread: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

  1. #201
    Registered User Louise NM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

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    Top: best of the bunch, purchased from LaMotte Violins, 28" total, 24.75" hair length
    Middle: VioMusic, 28.375" total, hair length 25"
    Bottom: another Chinese company, came with my baroque viola, 28" total, 24.5" hair length

    I can't get too excited about the overall length of the bow. There are some out there where the screw extends a solid 2" past the end of the frog. The length of the tips vary quite a bit. Any of them are too short to stay put in a regular case without using a tube of rolled paper or something similar to keep the tip in place.

    Doug, I would have loved to have been able to go to a shop with a large selection of baroque viola bows to try. It just was not a possibility! As I said many pages back in post #43 on this thread, I couldn't even find a baroque viola in the US, much less a bow.

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  3. #202
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by Louise NM View Post
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    Doug, I would have loved to have been able to go to a shop with a large selection of baroque viola bows to try. It just was not a possibility! As I said many pages back in post #43 on this thread, I couldn't even find a baroque viola in the US, much less a bow.
    Yes indeed Louise. Elizabeth Freeland describes in her article how she asked a few violin shops if they had baroque bows and they said that she was the first to ask. (and they did not have any baroque bows.) We are fortunate nowadays to have forums like this where we can make the search easier.

    Word of mouth as they say, works the best and my wife says that 20-30 years ago 'everyone knew everyone else'. It was such a small baroque community worldwide. Even then one had to ask a lot of people in order to find bow, or violin, or even gut strings.

    I don't know if mandolin players reading this topic understand the 'process of finding a bow'. Most violin players are taught to try many bows before choosing the 'one that works for you'.
    Last edited by DougC; Mar-24-2021 at 9:48pm.
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  4. #203
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    Less hair is good..
    That’s what my wife tells me—not sure if I believe her!
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    I think I gave a non-working link for that DZ Strad baroque bow on Amazon. This one should work: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07QMMSTJ2/

    Seems to be lighter than the other one.
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by Louise NM View Post
    Even 58 grams sounds a little heavy, as a standard Tourte-style violin bow generally weighs 58–62g...
    I would suggest it's at the heavy end of the normal range for a snakewood bow with screw adjustment. Here's David van Edwards period violin bow list, you'll see that most of his baroque violin bows range from about 60gm-69gm, with some outliers: https://www.vanedwards.co.uk/stock.htm. The bow Jim Garber links to above certainly isn't expensive, it may be worth a try.

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    I just emailed DZ Strad and will see if they have one of those bows in stock to try tomorrow. If not they have a 10% off sale so I might give it a try anyway. I don't think I would become a baroque player but just want to see if these bows would have any use for the folk styles I do play.
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  8. #207

    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Meanwhile I've been listening to all my favorite hdgfl-spillers all playing modern style bows. There's a style of bow hand that I sometimes use that 'lightens' the bow or makes it feel more agile - perhaps I'll try that more. It feels weird lifting the little finger off but it does have good effect.. Kinda feels a bit more like a drumstick in the hand - using the first finger like that. I believe I did some old-time fiddling like that years ago.. Bernt Balchan plays this way as well -


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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    Meanwhile I've been listening to all my favorite hdgfl-spillers all playing modern style bows. There's a style of bow hand that I sometimes use that 'lightens' the bow or makes it feel more agile - perhaps I'll try that more.
    Very nice, and the foot rhythm is interesting too - does he lift his little finger all the time? some do, but I suspect that may end up transmitting the arm weight more through your 1st finger, which can have other effects. Of course, there are good Irish and bluegrass fiddlers who just grab the bow frog with their fist right round it, and play rather well like that

  11. #209
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    I just emailed DZ Strad and will see if they have one of those bows in stock to try tomorrow. If not they have a 10% off sale so I might give it a try anyway. I don't think I would become a baroque player but just want to see if these bows would have any use for the folk styles I do play.
    So I just had my vaccine # 2 today in the same city and decided to visit this violin shop and they did indeed have quite a few of these Chinese baroque bows. And they even have a 10% off sale and I tried it out and ended up taking one home. Strange feeling but I figure for a little over $150 with tax it is worth playing around with it. I don't know if I would be a good person to review it since I don't have much experience with it. It seems pretty decent for the money. The guy who helped me is a classically trained violinist who also plays Irish trad so he was equally entertained. He said he might try playing some jigs and reels with one of those.

    Total Length: 27"/68.6cm
    Hair length: 23"/58.4cm
    Weight: 56g

    Here's a few pics. Top is comparison with my Codabow. I don't expect too much at this low price but it seems to work OK.
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    Last edited by Jim Garber; Mar-26-2021 at 11:18am.
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    The 'snakehead' bows I've played would probably be called 'tip light' by anyone used to a modern violin bow. You don't get the sensation of weight you can lever against at the tip end, but I think that's two edged - for me, it makes string crossing easier and quicker (useful for Celtic music and bluegrass). The big BUT is they usually have a good deal less power than a modern bow, that may not matter to some (or if you play amplified). Good quality snakewood can also give quite a lot of stiffness (if that's your preference) from a very thin bow shaft. Mine seem to give better definition and clarity than my modern bows, including carbon ones. I don't do many fancy bow strokes these days, but (leaving aside the question of whether they used it when these bows were new) some Baroque bows can do decent spiccatto etc. despite the lack of tip weight and shorter length.

  14. #211
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Lightness at the tip is the whole point! Modern bows allow you to maintain an even sound from frog to tip, and they are indeed more powerful This video is a perfect example of what baroque bows are for. It's a different technique and a different sound world.

    If your aim is to be heard over a banjo, guitar, bass, mandolin, and noisy bar crowd this isn't the way to go. Playford's The Dancing Master was published 34 years before Bach and Handel were born. If you want to explore how this music was originally played, a bow modeled on the ones of the era are a great tool.

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  16. #212
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Louise: I just pm’ed you but I also realized the the other folks here might also have suggestions on how to operate this bow. Definitely less volume and more gentle sound for sure but very pleasing. I have to find my Playford book and try some of those tunes. It seems like variations in tightening the hair make a big difference in how the bow plays. Is there a special grip different from standard?
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  17. #213

    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by maxr View Post
    Very nice, and the foot rhythm is interesting too - does he lift his little finger all the time? some do, but I suspect that may end up transmitting the arm weight more through your 1st finger, which can have other effects. Of course, there are good Irish and bluegrass fiddlers who just grab the bow frog with their fist right round it, and play rather well like that
    As much as I've seen, the clip is typical of Hallvard. Ya I've got this very lightweight bow that I started out on with the hdgfl, and basically with this style hold - it tends to bring out the gut strings more. Something different about hdgfl bowing is that I often see clips of players tilting the bow in the opposite way that fiddlers typically do. I've found this also to be effective - although completely at odds with normal bowing.

    That's a lovely piece Louise.

  18. #214
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Jim, you should have had a PM from me earlier.

    Catmandu2, isn't she amazing? One of the best in the early music biz.

    Going through the day's email, I just happened to stumble on an article from Strings Magazine that some of you may enjoy about the history of bows.

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  20. #215

    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    She's fabulous.

    Max here's another look at that bow style.


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  22. #216
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Thanks, Louise... er ... Lisa. Yes I did read your PM. Thanks so much for the info. However I did miss that link to the video and it took me a while to find out what you all were referring to. Interesting that she is choking up on the bow like many of my old time fiddling friends. I guess she changes the grip depending on the passages?

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  23. #217
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    In this still, Jim, she's holding it at a very typical place. In the sustained section at the very beginning she's closer to the frog, and if you look at around 4:30 where she's ripping along at a terrifying pace she's higher. You'll rarely, if ever, see a baroque player holding their bow the way modern player does.

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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by Louise NM View Post
    In this still, Jim, she's holding it at a very typical place. In the sustained section at the very beginning she's closer to the frog, and if you look at around 4:30 where she's ripping along at a terrifying pace she's higher. You'll rarely, if ever, see a baroque player holding their bow the way modern player does.
    Holding any bow just above the frog seems to work better for me for balance. It's only maybe an inch away from the 'standard' modern hold, but it make a difference. When I played cello, the hold I adopted before I found a teacher was what she (a Baroque cellist) described as "a typical Baroque cello bow hold". Does anyone know when the 'thumb on the frog cutout' modern violin bow hold originated, or why? It usually feels tip heavy to me.

  25. #219
    Registered User Louise NM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by maxr View Post
    Holding any bow just above the frog seems to work better for me for balance. It's only maybe an inch away from the 'standard' modern hold, but it make a difference. When I played cello, the hold I adopted before I found a teacher was what she (a Baroque cellist) described as "a typical Baroque cello bow hold". Does anyone know when the 'thumb on the frog cutout' modern violin bow hold originated, or why? It usually feels tip heavy to me.
    Maxr, I would guess the bow hold changed in the early 19th century as the style of bow introduced by F.X. Tourte caught on—basically the same design used today. Romantic-era music calls for much different techniques.

    I find it fascinating to look at photos of the old Appalachian fiddlers, the guys who were old-timers in the 1960s and '70s. Almost all of them had what we would now call a baroque bow hold, way up on the stick, and a lot had the end of the fiddle against their chest instead of on their shoulder—again, a very old way of holding a violin. That area was settled in the mid-18th century, around the time Bach died, by people from Germany and the British Isles. Any violins and bows they brought with them would have been baroque, as would have their approaches to playing them. As the decades turned into centuries they obviously got new instruments and bows, but retained the old way of using them.

    I have heard musicologists say that many of the traditional Appalachian tunes are straight out of the 18th century. (Same with linguistic idioms, folktales, etc.) It makes sense. An area as rural and isolated as Appalachia was until the 20th century will preserve old the ways much more than London or New York will. It probably all started to change with the availability of radio and television. It doesn't seem that younger fiddlers use the same bow holds their grandfathers did.

    What is the history of hardanger fiddle?

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  27. #220

    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    IIRC the earliest hdgfls date back to ~1750 (all numbers inexact - I was the one who said the bow weighed 58 oz!). SW Norway, the fiddles were narrower, shorter, deeper - some quite rustic, others quite elaborate. Used to accompany dance, processions, etc...also endured heavy stigmatization. Remote localities, like Appalachia, yielded well preserved traditions, customs, regional styles.. I imagine, like with most things, baroque influences caused changes in the instrument, technique, repertoire over time.

    My guess is these were derivative of much earlier archaic instruments and customs. Probably lots of mythology associated with it. Lots of Nature associations.

  28. #221
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    What caused the stigma?

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    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    ...My guess is these were derivative of much earlier archaic instruments and customs.
    Although the modern chromatic nyckelharpa dates from 1920s, there are stone carvings of simple diatonic nyckelharpas from something like 1350, and of course there's the violin family and predecessors. Nyckelharpas now have 12 sympathetic strings (an octave in semitones), but the concept would appear to be a development from the fiddle - the keys on a harpa do a similar job to your fingers on a fiddle. I wonder if it's unreasonable to suggest there might have been some form of fiddle/violin around before the nyckelharpa was developed?

  30. #223

    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by Louise NM View Post
    What caused the stigma?
    The usual foibles of ideology, cultural warfare, etc.

  31. #224
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Many classical players use this technique and they often have variations. Depending on what the player wants, the fourth finger (which balances the bow BTW) leaves the bow about half way in the bow stroke to add more first finger pressure. It works the opposite way too because the bow arm's elbow can 'lift' and create less pressure on the strings. It is darned subtle. And hard to describe as I just realized.

    Egil has a 'very nice control of the stick'. Meaning that his bow hand is loose and changes according to what he wants in the sound.

    Last edited by DougC; Mar-28-2021 at 10:09am.
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  32. #225

    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by DougC View Post
    How the bow arm works, the hold, or grip? O.K. First this notion of raising the fourth finger is a bit misleading. What happens, and if you watch him closely, this puts more pressure on the first finger. It should really be called press first finger to get more pressure on the bow. The result is that it makes the bow hair 'grab more' and get a bigger sound, esp. in double stops.
    Yep. I pointed that out at the beginning.

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    ...feels a bit more like a drumstick in the hand - using the first finger like that.

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