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Thread: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

  1. #176

    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Such expressive instruments - such evocative timbres - mandola, violin, cello. The cello sounds like a large snow squall down over the valley this eve - was lit up ruddy, blue and grey and white. Listening to the gurgling magpie, with a blackbird trill off in the distance and a throaty raven - I realized that playing the hdgfl in my house is like being outdoors; or that being outdoors with the birds is like being indoors playing hdgfl.

    I've got this big, beautiful bass clarinet that I get to play as my daughter insists. If I had to be left on a desert island with a lawn chair, it would have to be with my bass clarinet. But I digress.

  2. #177
    Registered User DougC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    I sincerely hope you all have not had enough of Baroque instruments and J.S. Bach music, because I have one more video that explains clearly the differences among old and new violins and bows.

    The topic is Mandolin World and VIOLIN World right? So here Sato and friend show more about violins and bows. And why they love them!

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  4. #178
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    I have seen one or two contest-style fiddlers on YT playing with either an Incredibow or a baroque style one, although I can’t seem to find those videos. I have tried an Incredibow and have not particularly loved it. But I do like the explanation above about the baroque bow.

    Ah, here is Tashina Clarridge playing with a baroque-looking bow:

    Last edited by Jim Garber; Mar-23-2021 at 7:52am.
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  5. #179
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    I have also been interested in pardessus de viole, a violin range of the viole family.

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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    I have seen one or two contest-style fiddlers on YT playing with either an Incredibow or a baroque style one, although I can’t seem to find those videos. I have tried an Incredibow and have not particularly loved it. But I do like the explanation above about the baroque bow.

    Ah, here is Tashina Clarridge playing with a baroque-looking bow:

    More fiddlers should discover the advantages of older style bows. If you go back and watch Lisa Grodin's bow tutorial you will see what kind of bow Tashina is using. I think that there are similarities among baroque music and some folk styles, like Old Time and Irish. Some of the rhythmic patterns are the same and with the 'right bow' there may be great benefits.

    I do prefer, however a beautiful sound over a 'scratchy' sound.

    And that brings me to my pet peeve 'the caring vs uncaring' musician. Most folk fiddlers either 'don't care about details, or have equipment and technique that produces a 'scratchy' sound. Historically, poor folks did not have the equipment or the musical education like the kings and queens orchestras. That did not prevent people from making great music though. Now however people can and do play folk music on expensive instruments and some do learn 'all about the science and methods' of what makes music work.

    I am one of the 'lazy ones' mentioned here. I want the result before the work. But with age I'm gaining more patience and determination. ha, ha.
    Last edited by DougC; Mar-23-2021 at 10:10am.
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by DougC View Post
    My favorite performer right now, Beiliang Zhu. She plays on a 5 string baroque cello
    I had a 5 string cello for a few years - pattern taken from the Bros Amati one in the Royal College of Music collection in London. the maker had access to it. It's a relatively short scale - looks like Beiliang Zhu's is a different model, which may be easier to play (the Amati model has very short C bouts). The 5 string (C G D A E) works quite well providing it's made with a wide enough neck (most 5 string bowed instriunts don't), and providing you can get it set up to play well with suitable strings. The E string is the difficult one - most wire core Es sound like barbed wire. However Pirastro will make custom synthetic core Es (Aricore?), and that worked well with Evah Pirazzi on the rest. That cello has PegHead geared pegs and a short ebony fingerboard, so it looks a bit Baroque but otherwise has a modern setup. I wasn't a great celliist, but it's amazing how the E string enables a very average player like me to make an attempt at say Bach's 6th Cello Suite (the high one...). I read that Bach played a now archaic instrument like a big 5 string viola (with added high E), and that makes perfect sense when you look at that Suite - the fingerings for some of the movements drop perfectly on the E string then transfer across the trings. I bought that cello for playing fiddle tunes on, but I guess I'm more of a fiddler, I think it's now in Switzerland.

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  10. #182

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    Quote Originally Posted by DougC View Post
    Catmandu2 Don't worry there is sill time to consider a Violincello Da Spalla.

    I love my Bach (did I mention that I love Bach?), but my introduction to viols was Jordi Savall - I subsequently became quite fond of Hesperion's Occident/Orient approach (and this led to infatuation with oud and 'middle-eastern' maqamat).

    I love the range and timbre of cello - in a sense I've spent half my life chasing after it (Suites on guitar, oud, doublebass, bari sax and bass clarinet), yet it's one instrument I've not studied. Doug, I appreciate the encouragement - but I hope I'm done (unless Max decides to trade me a nyckelharpa one day ).

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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Catmandu, do you know that there's a lot of Baroque music played on nyckelharpa in Europe? The 'Euro' tuned harpa (C drone G D A keyed, or all keyed) sound works well for that.

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  14. #184
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by maxr View Post
    Catmandu, do you know that there's a lot of Baroque music played on nyckelharpa in Europe? The 'Euro' tuned harpa (C drone G D A keyed, or all keyed) sound works well for that.
    They use a bow on a nyckelharpa so I suppose this fits the topic of Mandolin World vs Violin World. I was curious and had to hear Bach on this instrument. I'm glad I did. Thanks Maxr



    I prefer the sound of a baroque violin but I have to admit that this is quite impressive.

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  16. #185

    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by maxr View Post
    Catmandu, do you know that there's a lot of Baroque music played on nyckelharpa in Europe? The 'Euro' tuned harpa (C drone G D A keyed, or all keyed) sound works well for that.
    I've heard some, ya. I'm primarily a solo player (well, isn't everyone lately? ) so I love instruments with special resonances.

    Another place where that low C is exploited is on the Arabic oud; also providing that special resonance for me. But I think the n-harpa does it in spades - sort of like the 'ultimate' instrument in my mind. Of course, it doesn't come easy - what with how many chromatic sympathetic strings?.. But mostly, I suppose, I love Nordic music.

  17. #186
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    On the nyckelharpa videos above, Toborn is one of the best out there in both nyckelharpa and violin. And by that I mean western classical music violin.

    BTW, have found this whole discussion very interesting and have even twice typed out comments which I subsequently deleted. Fun to hear other folks perspectives.
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  19. #187
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by DougC View Post
    More fiddlers should discover the advantages of older style bows. If you go back and watch Lisa Grodin's bow tutorial you will see what kind of bow Tashina is using. I think that there are similarities among baroque music and some folk styles, like Old Time and Irish. Some of the rhythmic patterns are the same and with the 'right bow' there may be great benefits.
    Now you got me interested in these baroque bows with those two videos.

    However, in the comments by the poster of that Tashina video, they say, "But I can't tell you that there was any specific agenda that day in regards too using that specific bow beyond the fact that it was all that was on hand at the moment." So what does that mean. Someone just handed her that bow for no reason?

    Also, I am not sure how I could actually figure out which style of bow Tashina was playing with by watching Lisa's bow tutorial. Do you have any clues?

    I would love to get a baroque bow but I only see some really cheap ones which I am wary of and the rest handmade. There are a few from China but I have no idea which are decent or not. Again, if anyone is playing with one that is decent, let me know.
    Last edited by Jim Garber; Mar-23-2021 at 10:29pm.
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  20. #188
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    I would love to get a baroque bow but I don't quite see some really cheap ones which I am wary of and the rest handmade. There are a few from China but I have no idea which are decent or not. Again, if anyone is playing with one that is decent, let me know.
    Jim, until Covid brought everything to a halt I was playing in a Baroque group. Finding decent bows and instruments was . . . interesting. There are a lot of really, really awful quasi-baroque Frankenbows around, made of brazilwood painted to look like snakewood, cambered like a modern bow, generally unusable. The only good thing about them is that they are cheap, so you mind less when you use one as a stake for a tomato plant.

    Several of us bought these bows and were happy with them. They are cambered correctly and are balanced nicely. I had questions before buying, and the company got back to me quickly. I also bought one of these. Adam was lovely to deal with—he's a baroque player and knows his stuff—and I love the bow. I wasn't ready to spend $2500 or so for a custom-made one, and this was a good step up. (Now I have my eye on one of his classical bows.)

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  22. #189

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    There was a very nice ytube video available the last few years but I don't see it now.. Benedicte Maurseth uses the old bow, and sings beautifully.. (whose book about trad/Knut Hamre I read last year).



    Ah here is much better vid. With the regional antiquity of Hardanger fdl/culture she describes its similarities to a baroque vn at 4:26"

    Last edited by catmandu2; Mar-23-2021 at 10:29pm.

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  24. #190
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Louise: that one on Amazon is priced right for me to try and if I really liked it I would go for the other one you liked. I doubt I would really play baroque music but I like the different feel and attack that the violinists in the videos are getting. Of course they have the chops and I don’t but it would be fun to try.
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Jim, I have been tempted to take one to the contradances I (used to) play for. Jigs and reels are pretty darn baroque, and it seems like the speedy little bow would be just the ticket.

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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    I have a couple of bows made by this workshop:
    http://www.wangbow.com/

    Jimmy Wang makes pretty good playable bows at affordable prices, and he'll make bows to custom designs. I got him to make me a couple of nyckelharpa bows that are shorter than a modern violin bow but a good deal longer than the traditional harpa bow (I use the 'violin' hold so a longer bow works), and they work well.

    I have a couple of bows by David Van Edwards, a UK bow and viol maker. https://www.vanedwards.co.uk/bow.htm David's bows are affordably priced and work very well, his site is basic but interesting. Looks like his stock of ready made bows is very low at the moment, he usually has more.

    By the way, for those interested in nyckelharpa, I think Torbon Nasboom (sp?) playing Bach violin Sonatas half a dozen posts above, is doing so on quite an unusual nyckelharpa. It looks to have five melody strings, I'd guess tuned C G D A E like a 5 string violin, and probably four rows of keys (anyone know?). If it is, it's probably quite a large and heavy instrument. I know of only one maker who does these (but there could be more), he's up in the far North of Sweden. Here's Holger Funke of Poeta Magica (who sells harpas from Germany), playing Scandi music (I think) on one:


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  28. #193
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Now you got me interested in these baroque bows with those two videos.

    Also, I am not sure how I could actually figure out which style of bow Tashina was playing with by watching Lisa's bow tutorial. Do you have any clues?
    18th Century Bows are longer than 17th C. bows. They still have a pointy tip and a straight or slightly curved stick. The button at the base is the 'telling' aspect. These were either made of wood or ivory. And the frog was made of either material.
    So I'm fairly sure Tashina has an 18th Century Baroque bow.
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  29. #194

    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by Louise NM View Post

    Several of us bought these bows and were happy with them.
    Louise, are these intended for use on metal strings as well?

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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    Louise, are these intended for use on metal strings as well?
    While you're awaiting Louise's reply - I tried my David Van Edwards baroque 'snakehead' bows on a Baroque setup plain gut strung violin and modern setup fiddles. My impression is that the later the setup style is, the easier it is to play on the violin with any style of bow - possibly because modern strings respond more easily and reliably to bowing. Have a careful look at bow lengths on some makers' sites, because some early violin bow styles are short enough that they produce playing difficulties unless you really want tht authenticity. I have one of David's snakehead style bows made of snakewood, which I had shortened for playing nyckelharpa. It's still a little longer than some early 'short' style violin bows, but on violin it's too short for me, at least. The problem with Far East made/Ebay 'baroque' bows is that they're often designed for playing on a modern setup violin, so they're heavier and stiffer and often thicker in the shaft than a more authentic bow. They very often have too much hair and too wide a hair band. Also, my bows all have regular screw adjustment frogs. I had one 'clip' style frog, and I found adjusting it to be a hassle (others might not...).

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  32. #196

    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Someone wrote a review of that particular bow - indicating it's 26". I've got my 2 steels, 2 guts set-up on my hdgfl. Says 58 oz. - that may be heavier than I'm after..

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    Someone wrote a review of that particular bow - indicating it's 26". I've got my 2 steels, 2 guts set-up on my hdgfl. Says 58 oz. - that may be heavier than I'm after..
    This Baroque bow is being sold by a company that has a showroom near me. The specs are here: https://dzstrad.com/products/d-z-str...ba9576ac&_ss=r

    seems lighter than the other one: Size - Length (inches) / Weight: 4/4 - 27.25" / 49g-51g

    I actually will be in that town on Friday and might see if they have one in stock to try.
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  34. #198
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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    Louise, are these intended for use on metal strings as well?
    I don't know how they would work on steel strings. I have used mine on gut, wrapped gut, and synthetic and it has been fine on all. Whoever said it weighs 58 oz is nuts—that's a little over two pounds! Even 58 grams sounds a little heavy, as a standard Tourte-style violin bow generally weighs 58–62g and that includes the metal slide, button, and winding plus an ebony frog. The second bow I linked to, from LaMotte Violins, is definitely lighter than the one from VioMusic. I'll check the length of mine when I get home.

    All three of mine (I also have one I ordered with my baroque viola, but wouldn't recommend the bow) have screws for adjustment. Not completely authentic, but much easier to deal with than the clip-ins. As far as authenticity goes, I also subscribe to modern dentistry and smallpox vaccinations.

    The baroque bows have much less hair than a modern bow. I don't know if that would affect how it works on various types of strings. I haven't played on steel strings for decades and don't remember what the differences are.

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  36. #199

    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Woops, sorry - 58 grams Less hair is good..

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    Default Re: Mandolin world vs fiddle world

    Here is a great article that answers most all of your questions.

    It has advice about the taper which has to allow the hair not to touch the stick when doing double stops. This is something you'd have to ask the sales person. A picture will not indicate anything.

    Good Luck,

    https://www.violinist.com/blog/papag.../201911/28000/
    Last edited by DougC; Mar-24-2021 at 7:00pm.
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