Hide glue question

[J. Wiens]

John’s comments about how easy it can be to release Titebond and other Aliphatic (AR) glues rings true with me as well. I started out building instruments using Titebond and then LMI FG white glue where the application suited either best. Later I began using hot hide glue simply to explore the historical aspects of instrument making, but I ended up falling in love with it’s properties. The fast setup and it s sinew-like grab. How it sands, cleans up and how it sticks to itself and just how clear and hard it dries. It was too big an improvement over AR to ignore for me, and I found the supposed “difficulty of use” …The ritual of soaking, storing in the fridge, special heating pot etc. became a pleasure in time. One of those cool things a Luthier gets to do.
As I began to do more & more repair work on instruments, the less I liked using Aliphatic glues. Like John said, the ease of removal of a fingerboard or bridge glued with Aliphatic resin glue made a negative impression on me when compared with the more challenging removal of old hard hide glue joints. I remember one of my own HHG mandolin builds where I didn’t like the way the neck went on, and the removal of the neck was incredibly tough to get out even after just 3 minutes…That made an impression of just how HHG grabs firm.

By contrast, If you’ve heated and removed a fingerboard or bridge glued with Aliphatic and noticed just how easy it was, and how the heated AR glue turns rubbery, then found yourself picking the twangy remaining bits of rubber band out of the joint, you know what I mean. Re-gluing the same joint with Aliphatic Resin glue wouldn’t be something you’d want to do.

Like others, I believe every glue has it’s ideal purpose in your personal bag of tricks. I still use AR for brace repairs and separations inside instruments where clamping is gonna take awhile, but even then, if I can figure a way to use hot Hide glue, I will.

[HoGo]

I remember one of my own HHG mandolin builds where I didn’t like the way the neck went on, and the removal of the neck was incredibly tough to get out even after just 3 minutes…That made an impression of just how HHG grabs firm.

Similar experience here. I once glued upright bass spruce wedges but managed not to clamp in time and glue gelled and left a visible glue line so I immediately wanted to take it apart - took me more than half an hour, I broke separating knife and even brushing or pouring hot water on/in the joint didn't help as much as I expected. There were splinters of wood torn by the grab after this so I had to leave it to dry out and join again etc...

[rcc56]

Jamie, I am starting to work [cautiously] with adding urea to hide glue to extend its open time for internal repairs. Right now, the recipe is 10% urea to the weight of the dry glue flakes. So far, so good, although I might adjust the recipe.

I just never felt secure about repairing the multiple loose braces we often find in old Gibson guitars [Gibsonitis] by putting Titebond over old hide glue. If a joint doesn't hold, you've got a real problem trying to get all the old glue out of there.

Frank Ford once suggested that I might try heated Titebond liquid hide glue for loose back braces where there still may not be enough open time to set jacks and clamps. Heating the glue will help the new glue to bond to the old. Since the stress on back braces is fairly low, I'm not afraid of using the bottled stuff as long as it is fresh. And if a joint were to fail, it would be easier to clean it up.

[Jeff Mando]

I've told this story before, but probably a new audience since then....

The old guy who taught me had a glue pot cooking on the counter, which customers could see when they walked it. I asked, "so you use hot hide glue for all repairs, huh?" He said, naw, you use Titebond (original) for everything -- it works better and is easier to use -- the glue pot is what customers expect to see in a repair shop, along with clamps hanging on the wall, etc., just as jeweler's have their loupes and car mechanic's have their jacks....call it ambience or intrigue or whatever.......

Anyway, I took his advice and 30 years later Titebond has rarely failed me. Sure, I use other stuff when needed like superglue, epoxy, and sometimes even HHG, but for building a shelf or a cabinet -- it is Titebond original -- without question.

I will say, I'm a repairman, not a builder. IF YOU ARE A BUILDER, sure, using HHG gives you an extra angle, a selling point for those wanting 'em built like the old days -- nothing wrong with that, of course.

[sunburst]

OK, here's one of my anecdotes to go along with the others in this thread.

I once carefully fitted a pair of mandolin tone bars in the usual way, warmed the work, applied hide glue and clamped as usual, then left the shop for the day.
Next morning I removed the clamps and inspected the joints. One bar had leaned over a little bit and there was a very small gap about 1/2" long that my thinnest palette knife would fit into maybe 1/32". Though I've seen much worse gaps under braces when doing repair work, I decided to remove the brace and re-do the brace. I fired up my steam generator that I use for guitar neck resets (Mr. Coffee espresso maker) and directed the jet of steam at the faulty joint. It had not been glued 12 hours so I figured it would pop loose in short order. Nope. I worked with the steam needle and palette knives until things were getting too wet and hot for comfort, and made no progress whatsoever. I decided to let everything cool and dry, carve the brace out and make a new one. When all was dry and cool I looked for the gap and it was gone. The steam had closed the gap and it was glued solidly. I grabbed the bar and pulled, tried to rock it sideways, tapped it with a mallet, it was glued. I left it that way and continued building the mandolin.

[Dale Ludewig]

Well, I'll chime in again, especially now that John told that tale. I currently have an OM sized guitar in the build process. All the braces, top and back, were glued in with HHG in a go bar deck. Everything looked fine, tapping seemed very good after shaping. So the back is now on the guitar, everything waiting for a neck. A while back I was tapping on it (bonking) and there's that dreaded buzzing sound. something is loose somewhere inside. I've narrowed it down and know where a back brace is loose. I can't pull the back- it's already bound. Maybe I can direct a little steam from my nozzle (same setup John uses) and it might heal itself. It truly is the first day of spring!

[Fretbear]

The old guy who taught me had a glue pot cooking on the counter, which customers could see when they walked it. I asked, "so you use hot hide glue for all repairs, huh?" He said, naw, you use Titebond (original) for everything -- it works better and is easier to use -- the glue pot is what customers expect to see in a repair shop, along with clamps hanging on the wall, etc., just as jeweler's have their loupes and car mechanic's have their jacks....call it ambience or intrigue or whatever......

I have never appreciated how Hide Glue acolytes (often) make false statements about AR glue being “non-reversable” and thus a sin. Earlier in this very thread such a statement was made. I have a number of interests, art restoration being one, and if that statement was indeed true, I would be the first to agree with it.
One of the posters on this thread declares HHG as “vastly superior” on his site.
HHG is no more “vastly superior” to AR glue than an ox cart is vastly superior to a Toyota Rav4. They both do a job, and if you like one better than the other, then no-one has the right to say you are mistaken, but let’s keep our feet on the ground about our preferences.

[HoGo]

I have never appreciated how Hide Glue acolytes (often) make false statements about AR glue being “non-reversable” and thus a sin. Earlier in this very thread such a statement was made. I have a number of interests, art restoration being one, and if that statement was indeed true, I would be the first to agree with it.
One of the posters on this thread declares HHG as “vastly superior” on his site.
HHG is no more “vastly superior” to AR glue than an ox cart is vastly superior to a Toyota Rav4. They both do a job, and if you like one better than the other, then no-one has the right to say you are mistaken, but let’s keep our feet on the ground about our preferences.

HHG is vastly superior in some respect to Titebond. Especially for repairs and no creep.
Titebond is vastly superior to HHG mostly in its ease of use and long open time.
I would think many times before gluing clean crack with something else than HHG - there must be some strong reason against it. I would probably use Titebond for open seam on modern factory instrument made with Titebond but if the surfaces were sufficiently clean and the joint under higher stress I would opt for HHG. I would advise against use of Titebond on any open seam originally glued with HHG.
You must count with a chance that your repair will be redone some sooner or later and HHG makes it much easier for the next guy. I said NO! to several repairs where someone used GOK glue before and it failed few years later. Owner of the instrument was not happy...

[Dale Ludewig]

Are we nerding out enough yet? Quite the club here.

[John Bertotti]

I love the comments and perspectives on this! Curiously enough I would like to ask for a bit more detail of which glues you believe are better for which tasks from a new build perspective. I think some different repairs has been covered. My last build HHH was used for everything on the body. It was not bound but I wouldn’t have used it there and tire bond of old yellow wood glue for veneers and fret board. What would you have done different and why? Thanks again everyone! Keep needing out it is valuable info you are sharing! Thank you!

[HoGo]

When I build mandolin I use HHG fror all wood to wood joints. I used to use Titebond for gluing ribs to blocks in the past because I feared I couldn't clamp it in time but with my new mould and more experience it is no problem. Those areas are large and not under big stress so the Titebond is unlikely to creep but for the rest I never used modern glue.

[John Bertotti]

Out of curiosity what was the old yellow wood glue we used in shops class? I still have the first-ever box I made using cherry and that old yellow glue, ni signs of ever falling apart yet 39 years later.

[HoGo]

Out of curiosity what was the old yellow wood glue we used in shops class? I still have the first-ever box I made using cherry and that old yellow glue, ni signs of ever falling apart yet 39 years later.

There is no problem with Titebond or other modern glues. They do what they should. Musical instruments are a bit different from furniture or box. They are thin and under considerable stresses not only from strings but also from changing seasons, thin wood exchanges humidity much faster than thick walled boxes. Also instrument joint surfaces are rather minimal compared to the stresses. You want them to be strong and hold under long term stress. Furniture has much larger joint surfaces compared to inner stresses so they rarely fall apart.

[Dale Ludewig]

It was probably Titebond or Elmer's Carpenter's Glue. I think they're pretty much the same thing, but that doesn't mean I'm right. I've got furniture I built back in the mid 70's that is as solid as when new, as far as I can tell.
I also remember, back then, I was making a round 8 piece walnut picture frame, about 36" diameter. I didn't trust the normal glues so I opted for 5 minute epoxy to join the parts end to end, all end grain of course, one joint at a time. Not knowing what I do now, I didn't make a jig. I held each joint together with firm pressure from my hands until the glue set. (there was a spline in the joint). It builds upper body strength. I know nothing of HHG at the time. Duh. That would have been a better choice.

[John Bertotti]

There is no problem with Titebond or other modern glues. They do what they should. Musical instruments are a bit different from furniture or box. They are thin and under considerable stresses not only from strings but also from changing seasons, thin wood exchanges humidity much faster than thick-walled boxes. Also instrument joint surfaces are rather minimal compared to the stresses. You want them to be strong and hold under long-term stress. Furniture has much larger joint surfaces compared to inner stresses so they rarely fall apart.

Yes, exactly I do understand that. I also try to use joints that could hold themselves without glue except for large surfaces but legs corners etc I pay more attention to joint fit.

Oddly I became enamored with HHG when someone here. Maybe Sunburst, mentioned that if you had a perfectly fitted joint you could do a rubbed joint. I hand plane all my wood joints and check against a nice bright light for fit. I mixed the HHG per the can instructions put one side vertically with the edge joint facing up glued both edges and placed the other side on, lined it up, and let it set. I was amazed it pulled together tight no visible glue line and is still holding 15 years later. I don't know if it would be wise to do that with instruments but it was a cool discovery for me because I did not have an abundance of clamps and at the time couldn't afford more clamps.

[John Bertotti]

It was probably Titebond or Elmer's Carpenter's Glue. I think they're pretty much the same thing, but that doesn't mean I'm right. I've got furniture I built back in the mid 70's that is as solid as when new, as far as I can tell.
I also remember, back then, I was making a round 8 piece walnut picture frame, about 36" diameter. I didn't trust the normal glues so I opted for 5 minute epoxy to join the parts end to end, all end grain of course, one joint at a time. Not knowing what I do now, I didn't make a jig. I held each joint together with firm pressure from my hands until the glue set. (there was a spline in the joint). It builds upper body strength. I know nothing of HHG at the time. Duh. That would have been a better choice.

Elmer's carpenters! Yes, that was it, the name just slipped my mind! I'll just blame that on time.

[John Bertotti]

There is talk of shelf life but I have hide glue flakes still in the can that works just fine 15 years later. My titebond and wood glue do not seem as stable over time. I can go months or years with no woodworking then need some glue and find I have to run to a store or just mix up some HHG. My can however when you followed the instructions made for a very think mix and at the time it was my first attempt. I didn't know any better and mentioned it here only to find it was probably mixed wrong. I contacted the company which had accidentally added a zero to the instruction. Ironically enough that joint is still holding but I imagine it may be a bit brittle compared to the proper mix. Do you all wing the mix until you get the consistency you want or do you use the manufacturers instructions?

[sunburst]

At this time I use hide glue for every joint in a mandolin or a guitar except bindings. I use Titebond for wood bindings, Duco for celluloid and other compatible plastics, and Weld-on cement (I believe it is) for ABS (when forced to use it).
I mix hhg by eye in a small jar, let it sit a while then put the jar in a water bath in the glue pot. When it is heated I add distilled water until I get the consistency I want for the job at hand. (I always use distilled water for HHG. It is cheap and easy to get, it has no minerals, chlorine or any other contaminates. Tap water is surely fine in most places, but it is easy enough to keep a jug a distilled H2O next to the glue pot.)

When kept dry, hide glue granules or flakes or whatever are reputed to have unlimited shelf life.

[HoGo]

One of the "glue tests" published on internet tested HHG amongst others and whiel their winner was Titebond II if I recall correctly (they mostly did furniture joints and just simle strength test) the hide glue was among best for their loose fitting tenon category so even the "fact" that gets repeated all the time on internet may stand on water...

[Tom Haywood]

I'm sure there are many stories in every direction on this subject, but since I'm dealing with this one today I'll go ahead and tell it. Twice in a year I have repaired mandolins where the ribs separated from part of the neck block on both sides, causing the ribs to separate from the back and pushing out in such a way that simply pushing them back in and gluing the back in place would not be a good fix. The problem with both mandolins was really a mystery until I pulled the backs and saw the issue. Both mandolins were put together with hide glue. Both had gaps where there were areas of no glue, including in this critical joint on both sides of the block. Pulling the back off was the only way, as far as I know, to discover the problem. What little glue that was in the area had let go. The one last year was a five year old Rover A model - not worth the cost to fix a catastrophic failure, so I fixed it for free using Titebond Original. Today, the mandolin is a 1920 Gibson A. Fortunately, the owner finds it worthwhile to preserve this mandolin and keep it playable. While inside it, I found that the brace is well-glued except where there is no glue - a little more than 1/3 of the brace. I removed the brace and discovered that it is not well-fitted to the top, either, as well as having gaps in the hide glue all along it's length. I considered using hide glue after refitting it, but I've sanded it all off and will use Titebond.

I think the issue is that the hide glue shrinks as it cools, so it holds tighter but it can wind up with gaps - not good in joints that don't hold themselves together IMO. The pieces may move while Titebond cures, but it doesn't shrink and develop gaps. I agree that each glue type has advantages and disadvantages in different applications. Hide glue has held the overwhelming vast majority of ribs to neck blocks without any problems. But so far, I've seen two compared to zero problems of this type where AR glue was used. At this point, I see no reason to risk creating an expensive problem.

[HoGo]

I think the issue is that the hide glue shrinks as it cools, so it holds tighter but it can wind up with gaps - not good in joints that don't hold themselves together IMO. The pieces may move while Titebond cures, but it doesn't shrink and develop gaps. I agree that each glue type has advantages and disadvantages in different applications. Hide glue has held the overwhelming vast majority of ribs to neck blocks without any problems. But so far, I've seen two compared to zero problems of this type where AR glue was used. At this point, I see no reason to risk creating an expensive problem.

Are you sure you saw hide glue in a cheap factory Rover mandolin? It's not impossible, but very few chinese factories still use HHG - and mostly those that produce medium grade bowed instruments.
You cannot blame glue for someone's failure to prepare or clamp well fitting joint. In such joint any other traditional wood glue would fail anyway. And use of Titebond or other "gap filling glue" just in case to fill any unseen gaps si no no for me. If I know there are unavoidable gaps in the joint (redoing old botched repair with missing splinters or such) I would be chosing epoxy over Titebond every time. Or even thicker varieties of CA in cases when clamping is difficult and additional work such as backstrap is planned. Wood glues are meant to join wood-wood, not wood-air-wood.

[sunburst]

...You cannot blame glue for someone's failure to prepare or clamp well fitting joint....

Absolutely true but it happens a lot.

[rcc56]

And I've seen loose braces and loose necks on recent issue Martin guitars that were assembled with Titebond.
I wouldn't blame the glue.

Hide glue and Titebond are both proven glues.
But, neither will hold if the assembly practices do not follow the rules.

Which are: clean gluing surfaces, a good fit, sufficient clamping pressure, sufficient drying time, and enough glue to do the job.
If any of the above are lacking, a failed glue joint is likely, sooner or later.

Funny thing about old Gibson mandolins with the ribs coming loose from the neck block-- so far, I have only seen this problem on A models. I have yet to see it on an F-4 or F-5. Different assemblers doing the work? A different gluing jig? A different foreman trying to hurry instruments out the door? We'll never know.

[Richard500]

Mandolins, especially bowl-backs, are amazingly high in glue content, right up there with balsa airplane models. In the long history of woodworking and building, especially in hot, wet climates, one constant objective is to join wood without glue. The peak is probably Japan, where complex mechanical joints in big things, and pegged mortises in small things avoid problems, like earthquakes and damp.
So, how about someone clever redesigning instruments for mechanical joins? There’s this laser-cut hurdygurdy you can use for inspiration.

[HoGo]

I repaired loose neck block under neck heel on a '21 F-4. It has been repaired before but failed again. I had to open it a bit more and clean it, but the previous repair was done with HHG by a violin maker so it was not too bad job. It has been in use for 10 years or so since I glued it.