Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 27

Thread: How Many Use Thickness Sanders vs Hand Tool Methods?

  1. #1

    Default How Many Use Thickness Sanders vs Hand Tool Methods?

    I'm about to embark on my fourth flat top build. For my first three I used a 12" conical disk sander on my Shopsmith, which works fairly well. However, it generates clouds of dust in spite of my efforts to draw it into my dust collector.

    I'm thinking about buying one of the Jet bench top thickness (drum) sanders. Before I dedicate funds and storage space to another machine, I'm curious about other methods. How many use planes and scrapers for thicknessing plates and rims? How do you hold the work? I have some nice sharp hand planes and a Stanley scraper plane, but is that really a practical method?

  2. #2

    Default Re: How Many Use Thickness Sanders vs Hand Tool Methods?

    I could not imagine not having a thickness sander. It has definitely increased my production as well as allowed me to add other stuff to my repertoire which I had been buying complete such as flat top bridges, headplates, binding, fretboards etc. The downside to open end sanders is that they will eventually sag over time or flex when put under a heavy load.

  3. #3

    Default Re: How Many Use Thickness Sanders vs Hand Tool Methods?

    Hmmm. Jet mentions being able to adjust to re-parallel the sander, but maybe I'm misinterpreting that. Wen makes a small sander with a supported arm with obvious limitations in width.

  4. #4
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    15,863

    Default Re: How Many Use Thickness Sanders vs Hand Tool Methods?

    Quote Originally Posted by thistle3585 View Post
    ...The downside to open end sanders is that they will eventually sag over time or flex when put under a heavy load.
    We learn to work within the capabilities of our tools. I wouldn't give up my 16-32 unless I suddenly had space for a wide belt sander!
    Dedicated thickness sanders (as opposed to drill press or other adaptations) are set up well for dust collection. Mine doesn't release any noticeable amounts of dust into the air when I have the dust collector attached to it.

  5. #5

    Default Re: How Many Use Thickness Sanders vs Hand Tool Methods?

    I'm with Andrew, I can't imagine not having a thickness sander. I have a Grizzly G0458, it is open ended, and it has sagged about .003"-.005" over the years. That hasn't caused any problems, but I do keep an eye on it. Once you get used to using it, you'll find more and more uses for it.

  6. #6

    Default Re: How Many Use Thickness Sanders vs Hand Tool Methods?

    Quote Originally Posted by Parker135 View Post
    Hmmm. Jet mentions being able to adjust to re-parallel the sander, but maybe I'm misinterpreting that. Wen makes a small sander with a supported arm with obvious limitations in width.
    That may be. My first one just wasn't up to production level work and it began to sag and required shimming the bottom mounting bolts to bring it square. The downside to them, in my opinion, is that the sanding head moves up and down instead of being fixed. I bought a 18-32 Palmgren unit but the belt table adjusts instead of the head. I can easily fine tune it with with a twist of an allen screw on the table mechanism. It is built by the same company that makes the Grizzly 18-32. Great machine. I'm now looking for a 24" dual drum unit. If you're anywhere near Indiana then mine may be on the market soon.

  7. #7
    Registered User j. condino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Asheville, NC
    Posts
    2,758

    Default Re: How Many Use Thickness Sanders vs Hand Tool Methods?

    +1000 for the comments on how valuable a tool it is in my shop.

    Where I live, I see them used on Craigslist and Marketplace for around $400 or less almost weekly.

    As for the irony of discussing long term metal fatigue and creep when compared to using a disc sander on a Shopsmith....
    www.condino.com

    Crafted by hand in a workshop powered by the sun.

  8. #8
    Adrian Minarovic
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Banska Bystrica, Slovakia, Europe
    Posts
    3,461

    Default Re: How Many Use Thickness Sanders vs Hand Tool Methods?

    What is thickness sander? :-)
    I just thicknessed six sets of ribs for mandolins and one for violin, from bandsawed strips to scraped surfaces in some 2-3 hours. Mostly using toothing plane I made myself.
    Looks like I'm going backwards... I didn't even use router for binding for my latest two mandolins and went full hand-cut with small gramil (that I made as well) and chisels...
    Adrian

  9. #9

    Default Re: How Many Use Thickness Sanders vs Hand Tool Methods?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoGo View Post
    What is thickness sander? :-)
    I just thicknessed six sets of ribs for mandolins and one for violin, from bandsawed strips to scraped surfaces in some 2-3 hours. Mostly using toothing plane I made myself.
    Looks like I'm going backwards... I didn't even use router for binding for my latest two mandolins and went full hand-cut with small gramil (that I made as well) and chisels...
    Adrian, I was hoping you would reply. So how do you hold your work when planing thin materials? Double backed tape? Ribs and flat top plates are pretty flexible to try to hold against something like a planing stop.

  10. #10

    Default Re: How Many Use Thickness Sanders vs Hand Tool Methods?

    Quote Originally Posted by j. condino View Post
    +1000 for the comments on how valuable a tool it is in my shop.

    Where I live, I see them used on Craigslist and Marketplace for around $400 or less almost weekly.

    As for the irony of discussing long term metal fatigue and creep when compared to using a disc sander on a Shopsmith....
    I know all the shortcomings of the Shopsmith, but it has served me well as a hobbyist for many years. Its worst feature is probably the table saw, but I much prefer the bandsaw for what I do anyway.

    Their conical disk is actually a pretty good idea. Being a shallow cone, it only intersects with a planar surface along one line, which allows it to do a pretty good job as a thickness planer. I've used it that way many times, but oh the dust is awful.

  11. #11

    Default Re: How Many Use Thickness Sanders vs Hand Tool Methods?

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	thicknesssander.JPG 
Views:	90 
Size:	297.0 KB 
ID:	192926 I made one which works well. 24". The big surprise was attaching the sandpaper strip. I used duct tape for a trial run before making the fancy bits, but the tape worked so well I never 'improved' it. It was mostly used for guitar parts.

  12. #12

    Default Re: How Many Use Thickness Sanders vs Hand Tool Methods?

    Double sided carpet tape, in the indoor, less sticky version is a fairly safe hold down for light machining. A simple vacuum table can be home made as well. People using planers or sanders wanting minimum snipe will use added material at both ends and a carrier board that’s better supported than the machine bed or table. Like many tools that are less than rigid, light passes are best.

  13. #13

    Default Re: How Many Use Thickness Sanders vs Hand Tool Methods?

    Thanks, Richard (assume that's correct). I've been watching videos that suggested carpet tape or hot glue, and that does look like a good method. I watched one with added stock at the end and didn't think about it being for prevention of sniping. I do have a thickness planer which will work well for straight grained woods, so maybe between that and my hand tools, I'll forego the thickness sander, at least for now. I'm at the serious hobbyist end of the spectrum with limited real estate in my workshop, so space was actually a bigger concern than the cost of a modest sander.

    I like John Hamlett's quote above: "We learn to work within the capabilities of our tools."

  14. #14
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    15,863

    Default Re: How Many Use Thickness Sanders vs Hand Tool Methods?

    Speaking of which...
    Usually, when I'm sanding stock through the thickness sander there are multiple pieces, like guitar tops and backs, guitar or mandolins sides, whatever. I run them through butted tightly against one another end to end so that there is no snipe. To start the process, I run a wood scrap of similar thickness ahead of the first piece of stock, and if I want to stop for a break or any other reason, the scrap goes through last. Any snipe ends up in the scrap wood.
    (There are drawers in the cabinet upon which I mounted my thickness sander. In one of those drawers are wood scraps of various thicknesses.)

  15. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to sunburst For This Useful Post:


  16. #15

    Default Re: How Many Use Thickness Sanders vs Hand Tool Methods?

    So placing the pieces tightly together end to end will prevent snipe? I would have thought they'd still kick up a little when passing by the rollers, but I guess if the next piece is tightly coupled, it would help even out the pressure. I just spent a little time reading more about snipe and saw examples of this. I guess staggered side-by-side pieces helps as well. I also like the idea of scrap side rails to help keep the rollers even when passing over ends of the stock. I've learned a lot here today!

  17. #16
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    15,863

    Default Re: How Many Use Thickness Sanders vs Hand Tool Methods?

    Staggering pieces side by side works fine in a thickness planer, but the varying width of cut tends to produce uneven thickness in a sander because of the nature of the machine and the nature of the cut. Especially in cantilevered designs the machine tends to flex when the width of cut suddenly changes as the second piece reaches the rollers. Even in wide belt sanders platens and drums tend to compress. It's just not like a thickness plane where the table and cutter are relatively rigid.

  18. #17
    Adrian Minarovic
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Banska Bystrica, Slovakia, Europe
    Posts
    3,461

    Default Re: How Many Use Thickness Sanders vs Hand Tool Methods?

    Quote Originally Posted by Parker135 View Post
    Adrian, I was hoping you would reply. So how do you hold your work when planing thin materials? Double backed tape? Ribs and flat top plates are pretty flexible to try to hold against something like a planing stop.
    I just clamp it to table at the end and plane in direction AWAY from clamp towards the end of the piece, then I turn the piece and plane the part that was under clamp. I use the simple quick grip clamp for this, takes a second to reposition the piece. Old workbenches have various holding devices for this (dogs etc.) but I don't have a bench, just a 2" thick wooden workboard bolted to concrete walls so I use clamps instead of built-in vices.
    Adrian

  19. #18

    Default Re: How Many Use Thickness Sanders vs Hand Tool Methods?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoGo View Post
    I just clamp it to table at the end and plane in direction AWAY from clamp towards the end of the piece, then I turn the piece and plane the part that was under clamp. I use the simple quick grip clamp for this, takes a second to reposition the piece. Old workbenches have various holding devices for this (dogs etc.) but I don't have a bench, just a 2" thick wooden workboard bolted to concrete walls so I use clamps instead of built-in vices.
    Okay, that's similar to what I was trying but I was concerned about planing against the grain when it comes time to flip the piece. I guess quarter-sawn stock shouldn't have much trouble with that. I'll look into getting a spare plane iron to try a toothed version. That's been on my to-do list anyway. Thanks.

  20. #19

    Default Re: How Many Use Thickness Sanders vs Hand Tool Methods?

    Just as they sensibly disregarded Western tradition and introduced thin saws that cut on the pull, the Japanese also decided that hand planes could be pulled as well as pushed. Considering that a woodworker generally works on the floor with no bench or vises, this works out. Nothing wrong with turning a Stanley around, and also keeping diagonal to the grain. That is, keep the wood in one place and plane in whatever direction works.
    Adrian made his own toothed plane, and as these are somewhat antique and scarce here, or hobby-expensiive, you can do it too. Usually a high angle, but probably doesn’t matter so much. The iconic Shopsmith can easily support a thin fiber abrasive disk in lathe mode, and you’d be done in a couple of minutes. (I use lots of those 3”x.030 disks on high speed hand grinders mostly on metal for oddball operations.)

  21. #20

    Default Re: How Many Use Thickness Sanders vs Hand Tool Methods?

    Like yours, my Shopsmith has served me well for 35 years; guitar building for 12, and I’m on my 3rd mandolin. I like using hand tools as much as I can, so I start out thicknessing with hand planes but don’t have the chops to go to final dimensions with a plane so I use a set up similar to this:

    https://www.lumberjocks.com/shipwright/blog/26701

    The drum is supported at both ends - I use a four jaw chuck at the headstock and a live center at the tail stock. I am very happy with the results. A steady feed rate is important otherwise you’ll get some divots.

    I use this simple setup for narrow parts like ribs, guitar bridge blanks, veneer for headstock overlays... I’ve been making my own herringbone purfling for many years using veneers made this way:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	746CCC3D-B6E7-4AEF-AFE5-D97439567CB7.jpeg 
Views:	67 
Size:	438.8 KB 
ID:	192941

  22. #21
    Adrian Minarovic
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Banska Bystrica, Slovakia, Europe
    Posts
    3,461

    Default Re: How Many Use Thickness Sanders vs Hand Tool Methods?

    Quote Originally Posted by Parker135 View Post
    Okay, that's similar to what I was trying but I was concerned about planing against the grain when it comes time to flip the piece. I guess quarter-sawn stock shouldn't have much trouble with that. I'll look into getting a spare plane iron to try a toothed version. That's been on my to-do list anyway. Thanks.
    On curly maple you are planing against grain at each curl... You need well setup plane held at angle. High angle planes work better without tearout but they are harder to push through the wood. I made my own plane with 60 degree angle and that worked great as is I could also flip the iron bevel up and get 85 degree scraper plane but I cut groves into iron with tiny triangular diamond file and now it really plows easily through any wood without tearout at 60degrees no matter what is grain direction. Some violin makers use 80-90 degree toothing plane for this but I ddn't even try to flip the blade...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_1392.JPG 
Views:	80 
Size:	124.3 KB 
ID:	192942  
    Adrian

  23. #22
    Registered User tree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    northern Virginia
    Posts
    1,570

    Default Re: How Many Use Thickness Sanders vs Hand Tool Methods?

    Ok I have a new project, make myself a toothing plane! One, it's a tool I don't have and two, it should help me dealing with the inevitable areas of prickly grain that crop up in most of the wood I work with.

    I have no idea how they made them from a solid block of wood "back in the day". I could never have created the cavity with the precision required.

    Adrian, yours looks to me like the front, back, sides and bottom are glued together, which seems a method much more likely to deliver the correct angles and tight clearances - if you can clamp it without the parts slipping around. The lighter wood looks like maple, what is the dark colored wood in the wedge and the sole? Hickory maybe?
    Clark Beavans

  24. #23
    Adrian Minarovic
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Banska Bystrica, Slovakia, Europe
    Posts
    3,461

    Default Re: How Many Use Thickness Sanders vs Hand Tool Methods?

    Normally the inside would be just chiseled away with two edges kept to hold the wedge. I decided for glue up but I had to carve the sides so the edges rise from them. That would be easy with a safe-t-planer head or such but I don't own drillpress so I did it all freehand with chisel and scrapers. I think carving from one solid block could take less time... The sides and two blocks were glued together then bottom flattened and sole glued on and the mouth re-opened with sharp chisels.
    I had a spare plane iron 36mm wide so I made the body to fit it. Approximately
    The sole and wedge are oak. Not the best wood for this but I didn't want to waste my few pieces of ironwood if the plane didn't work. I shortened the iron (which is not shown in the pics) and slightly rounded the edges (and will round them even more for ease of holding).
    The second pic shows the first test ride over piece of curly maple with newly sharpened iron just after completion. After cut the teeth into iron I also trimmed the long iron. Now it produces handfulls of wood spaghetti.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_1376.JPG 
Views:	86 
Size:	150.1 KB 
ID:	192947   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_1372.JPG 
Views:	92 
Size:	143.5 KB 
ID:	192946  
    Adrian

  25. #24

    Default Re: How Many Use Thickness Sanders vs Hand Tool Methods?

    Clark, it’s really not all that difficult: straight cuts with chisels. The only ‘precise’ part is the mouth if there isn’t an applied sole. I have several user-made planes where the angles were just penciled on the side. These days, users can get more access to use saws if the plane is split down the length into three parts. As long as the bed under the blade is reasonably flat down to the bottom, the plane will work. I have some well-used ones where the mouth enlarging from wear is corrected with an insert in the sole. Boxwood if available.
    Think of the fun you’d have making Dutch wooden shoes in one piece!
    Adrian’s plane is particularly handsome, and the iron is nice and thick - helpful, and I also guessed about the sole material. The wonder material ‘back in the day’ if you had access, and really good tools, was lignum vitae, and if you had the skills to key it in to the upper part.

  26. #25
    Registered User tree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    northern Virginia
    Posts
    1,570

    Default Re: How Many Use Thickness Sanders vs Hand Tool Methods?

    So I use hand tools, mostly. I do have a band saw and a drill press, but I prep all my stock with hand planes, which takes a fair amount of time and effort.

    I've chopped plenty of mortises, and the cavity in a hand plane sure looks like a big, complex mortise to me. Maybe it's not more difficult to chop that from a single block, but I would guess there is some technique involved so all those compound angles meet squarely and precisely. I know that they used floats to flatten the rough sides, I do have a couple of those.

    Maybe I'll try it, but it sure looks easier for the way I work to saw out the pieces and glue them up. I have some boxwood, and I think keying in an insert into the sole would be fairly straightforward - like sliding dovetails, which I've done. And yes, that's a very nice thick iron in Adrian's plane.
    Clark Beavans

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •