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Thread: Help to identify vintage mandolin

  1. #1

    Default Help to identify vintage mandolin

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ID:	193124Hi, I as a hobby collect guitars and ukuleles. I recently won this bowl back mandolin in an auction. I would appreciate help to identify it. It’s In not great shape but looks great to me. I play mandolin a little bit. Missing some of the binding decoration. But has an awesome golden butteryfly inlay. Almost looks more like a gypsy moth to me. Any help indentfying would be appreciated. I plan to restore it and play it.

    If it’s special it will be funding for my kids college lol! Bit would be happy to just know what it is so I can pursue the right way to restore it. I’ve done minor restoration on guitars and ukuleles myself, but nothing like this.

    -GG-
    Last edited by GrubbGuitar; Mar-28-2021 at 1:06am. Reason: Add pictures

  2. #2

    Default Re: Help to identify vintage mandolin

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  3. #3

    Default Re: Help to identify vintage mandolin

    It's a "butterfly" mandolin which were all the rage at one time. You might show the tuners and the whole of the board and a closer shot of the tailpiece- as they can often help with the identification. It looks very nice but is probably not really worth very much. I can't see enough to work out if it is American or Italian although with what I can see thus far, I lean to the former but it may well be European in origin. Your mandolin shares a fair few characteristics with this Oscar Schmidt instrument:

    https://jakewildwood.blogspot.com/20...-bowlback.html

  4. #4
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help to identify vintage mandolin

    My guess would not be US, but European.
    We rarely see US makers profiling the end of the fretboard to match the top of the sound hole....it’s typically cut straight across (as on the one from Jake’s site) if it doesn’t have some type of extension.

    I don’t know if it is Italian or from elsewhere based on these photos.
    The tailpiece is not something I’ve seen on Italian bowls, but it’s hard to make a firm attribution based on a tailpiece.

    Pretty certain this is not from OS.

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  5. #5

    Default Re: Help to identify vintage mandolin

    I took a look at Jake's Oscar Schmidt bowlbacks in his museum section and two of them had profiled ends to the board at the sound hole, so it appears to be something that OS did from time to time. That does not make it an OS mandolin but it does not rule it out as a possibility. Seeing the tuners might help a lot although I am sure I have seen that engraved tailpiece before on a US made instrument.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Help to identify vintage mandolin

    GG. It is nice. You probably know already that a large number of staves on the bowl indicates an originally more expensive mandolin. Your moth is also sophisticated, as these things go. Origin - I can’t guess. Overall looks well-preserved. If you intend to restore and play, it would be good if you can do the work yourself, as it seems luthiers are wary about this shape if structural repairs are needed, and also because the market value is low, even restored. So first, make sure the innards are still all connected, put on the lightest strings you can buy. (Light, extra light) for safety, and maybe put a bridge on that matches the original print on the top.

  7. #7
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help to identify vintage mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by NickR View Post
    I took a look at Jake's Oscar Schmidt bowlbacks in his museum section and two of them had profiled ends to the board at the sound hole, so it appears to be something that OS did from time to time. That does not make it an OS mandolin but it does not rule it out as a possibility. Seeing the tuners might help a lot although I am sure I have seen that engraved tailpiece before on a US made instrument.
    We’ve seen that fretboard detail from time to time on US bowls, but it’s not very common. Doesn’t much look like an OS to me...from the particular tapered bowl shape.... but like with all the many “Larson” attributions here there’s always a possibility.

    Mick
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  8. #8
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help to identify vintage mandolin

    As noted by others above, butterflies were very popular decorating pickguards on bowlbacks. However, inlays are not always reliable for identifying makers since they were often sold by pearl suppliers. I have seen the same inlay patterns on instruments made by various makers. However, certain features like pickguard and headstock shapes and other design features are sometimes useful for IDing these.

    Having said that, in scouring my jpeg files I find a few mandolins made by Vega that used similar pearl butterflies inlaid into similarly shaped pickguards. These don't show up as standard models in the catalogs I have access to so may indicate more custom features. I would guess you could walk into Vega or similar shops and order a mandolin and pick out a butterfly inlay from a catalog along with border inlays. In any case, here are a few examples that look similar to the OP's.

    This looks like a decent mandolin and if it is a Vega that would certainly be decent quality. It looks like it has at least one crack on the bowl. Aside from inlays missing as long as the neck joint is fine, the top is not warped or cracked you might have a decent playing mandolin.

    You can rest assured that you don't have a mandolin that will pay for more than a small portion of room and board at your kid's college. This is, at most a decent mandolin and is more of a mid-range model. In addition, although there are some of us folks here who like these bowlbacks, in the general instrument world they don't get much respect. If this was in immaculate shape and was made by a known maker you might get a few hundred dollars selling it.

    I could not find this listing on shopgoodwill.com for some reason and I know they are no known for quality photography but if you have the link you can probably download the images—it looks like you posted screen shots of the ones from the site. Or even better, take some detailed shots of the actual instrument if you have it in hand.

    I really can't say the OP's was made by Vega or not but it is possible. Better photos would help. Here are a few Vega examples of three Vegas with similar butterfly pickguards from my files:
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Help to identify vintage mandolin

    Jim that's a fine butterfly collection you have there! I can see the characteristic butterfly antennae on one- which is how you can- among other details identify a butterfly from a moth. A bit like working out the maker of a mandolin! As mentioned already better photos would assist in this particular butterfly hunt. I have a photo nearby of me and my brother (who is an insect expert) with two friends with our nets in a beauty spot back in 1964 looking for butterflies! I still get a thrill if I see a rare butterfly- and I always let my catches go as a kid!

  10. #10
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help to identify vintage mandolin

    Here's another one with a similar butterfly from Elias Howe who had a connection with Vega.

    Attachment 193154

    And another one, this much later, from David Porazzo 1938. He lived near Boston, MA, which seems to also be a clue. Perhaps the pearl supplier was near there, although Porazzo worked in New York and may have bought from a pearl supplier like Louis Handel (yes, most likely the maker of the inllaid tuning buttons).

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    Default Re: Help to identify vintage mandolin

    It doesn't appear to have its original bridge, as the mark left in the finish by the original is significantly longer than the current bridge; I'd also be a bit surprised if the current one is properly placed "south" of the cant in the top, since most bridges were located between the cant and the sound hole. However, some Vega mandolins did locate the bridge between the cant and the tailpiece.

    Overall, if there aren't any structural issues, I'd call it a $200-300 mandolin when all fixed up. If it were a Vega, wouldn't it have a label? I'm assuming there's no label inside.
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    Default Re: Help to identify vintage mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by GrubbGuitar View Post
    ...If it’s special it will be funding for my kids college...
    I don't think anyone else has addressed that but very few bowl back mandolins bring large numbers in sales and they are well known branded instruments.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help to identify vintage mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    I don't think anyone else has addressed that but very few bowl back mandolins bring large numbers in sales and they are well known branded instruments.
    Allen and I both addressed that possibility:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    You can rest assured that you don't have a mandolin that will pay for more than a small portion of room and board at your kid's college. This is, at most a decent mandolin and is more of a mid-range model. In addition, although there are some of us folks here who like these bowlbacks, in the general instrument world they don't get much respect. If this was in immaculate shape and was made by a known maker you might get a few hundred dollars selling it.
    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    Overall, if there aren't any structural issues, I'd call it a $200-300 mandolin when all fixed up.
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help to identify vintage mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by NickR View Post
    Jim that's a fine butterfly collection you have there!
    You gave me an idea:

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    Registered User Sue Rieter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help to identify vintage mandolin

    That would be a great poster!

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help to identify vintage mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Sue Rieter View Post
    That would be a great poster!
    Yes, for mandolin-playing lepidopterists.
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    Default Re: Help to identify vintage mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Yes, for mandolin-playing lepidopterists.
    That would depend on the persnicketiness thereof. I daresay these butterflies are more ornamental than representational. Which may matter to some ...
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    Registered User Sue Rieter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help to identify vintage mandolin

    I guess it might depend on how much of a hard core lepidopterist one is
    I just think they look really cool and never saw so many different ones in one place before!

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help to identify vintage mandolin

    Let me rephrase this: for butterfly-ornamented mandolin appreciators.
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    Default Re: Help to identify vintage mandolin

    Perhaps you could change the title of the poster to Rare Butterfly Mandolins or even Not-So-Rare Butterfly Mandolins

    This is really impressive and will be referred to for years to come when these pop up.
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    Default Re: Help to identify vintage mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Sue Rieter View Post
    That would be a great poster!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Yes, for mandolin-playing lepidopterists.
    Quote Originally Posted by journeybear View Post
    That would depend on the persnicketiness thereof. I daresay these butterflies are more ornamental than representational. Which may matter to some ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Let me rephrase this: for butterfly-ornamented mandolin appreciators.
    Well-played and well-said, sir! That deserves a hat tip and a mandosmiley.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    Perhaps you could change the title of the poster to Rare Butterfly Mandolins or even Not-So-Rare Butterfly Mandolins

    This is really impressive and will be referred to for years to come when these pop up.
    Also, bound to show up readily in google searches.

    I must say, we are having a bit of fun here. We might not be getting anywhere, but we're having a good time along the way.
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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help to identify vintage mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by journeybear View Post
    ...bound to show up readily in google searches...
    Yup.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    Default Re: Help to identify vintage mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    You gave me an idea:
    Permission to repost on the book of faces?
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help to identify vintage mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    Permission to repost on the book of faces?
    Sure, why not? I did post there in a few places already.
    Last edited by Jim Garber; Mar-30-2021 at 2:18pm.
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    Default Re: Help to identify vintage mandolin

    This reminds me of similarly-constructed posters, compendiums of similar but differing images, such as Irish or English doorways. All in all, quite lovely, indeed.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

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