Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 93

Thread: Hide glue question

  1. #1
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    SD
    Posts
    3,658

    Default Hide glue question

    I have used hide glue on instruments but never on other woodworking projects. So, this may be a bit of a different question for you guys. Have you used hide glue on any other projects besides instruments? I am receiving 300 board feet of 4/4 cherry and in another month 100 of 8/4. I will be making kitchen shelves and tables and workbenches and some backs and sides. I am curious how well it will hold up to these other than instrument applications. I have generally used just plain old yellow wood glue in the past but I have had good results with rubbed joints using hide glue and it has me wondering. Thanks, apologies if this is too far off base as questions go.
    My avatar is of my OldWave Oval A

    Creativity is just doing something wierd and finding out others like it.

  2. #2
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    15,863

    Default Re: Hide glue question

    I works fine for other projects (furniture etc.) when used in joints where it's characteristics are advantages, but it can be a poor choice for other joints.
    Fit of the joint is of paramount importance, so things like chair rungs are better glued with something that is a better gap filler. (Chair rungs are also subjected to sheer stresses and other stresses that hide glue is not particularly well suited for.)
    Hide glue has very good tensile strength but not very good sheer strength, so joints that are subject to high sheer loads are a not great applications for hide glue.
    Hide glue doesn't resist shock loads very well so if an item is to be hammered, bumped hard or otherwise subjected to shock hide glue is not the best.
    Hide glue does not resist moisture very well so joints that are likely to get wet are better for other glues.
    Hide glue has limited open time and limited working time so joints that take a long time to assemble and clamp are often more easily accomplished with some other glue.

    You might see a trend here. Some glues are better than others for particular joints. That means it is a good idea to do some research into glue characteristics and joint characteristics, and use appropriate glues and adhesives. Also take into consideration what the joint will be subjected to in terms of temperature, moisture, stress and so forth.
    There is no one glue or adhesive that is best for all joints.

  3. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to sunburst For This Useful Post:


  4. #3
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Forest Grove, Oregon
    Posts
    2,775

    Default Re: Hide glue question

    Unless you plan on taking apart your tables and workbenches, I’d use yellow (aliphatic) glue. That said, hide glue is probably plenty strong enough. Factories left hide glue behind when better alternatives became available.
    Not all the clams are at the beach

    Arrow Manouche
    Arrow Jazzbo
    Arrow G
    Clark 2 point
    Gibson F5L
    Gibson A-4
    Ratliff CountryBoy A

  5. #4
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    15,863

    Default Re: Hide glue question

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill McCall View Post
    ...Factories left hide glue behind when better alternatives became available.
    Mostly they left hide glue behind when easier alternatives became available. When a glue or adhesive is easy to use workers will often make a better glue joint using it.
    Once again, we should choose glues according to the task at hand and how it matches up with the characteristics of our available glues. Factories often use a one-size-fits-all approach, so hide glue was often used in inappropriate joints and thus developed a reputation for not making strong joints.

    If I could work in a shop heated to 90 degrees or so I wouldn't hesitate to use hide glue to make tables and work benches, but I would sure hope I never had to take them apart. Unless we can get moist heat to the joint, a good hide glue joint is extremely difficult to separate.

    When it comes down to it, for work benches I would use yellow glue. For tables I might choose hide glue for it's higher clarity and invisibility in the joint, but if I remember correctly the last table top I made, I used Titebond. So much easier and good enough for the job.

  6. The following members say thank you to sunburst for this post:


  7. #5
    Ursus Mandolinus Fretbear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Copperhead Road
    Posts
    3,136

    Default Re: Hide glue question

    Jerry Rosa, with 45+ years of experience with wood, glues, new instrument construction and world-class restoration, believes that if Stradivari were building instruments today, he would use Titebond Original
    But Amsterdam was always good for grieving
    And London never fails to leave me blue
    And Paris never was my kinda town
    So I walked around with the Ft. Worth Blues

  8. The following members say thank you to Fretbear for this post:

    Reywas 

  9. #6
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    15,863

    Default Re: Hide glue question

    Quote Originally Posted by Fretbear View Post
    Jerry Rosa, with 45+ years of experience with wood, glues, new instrument construction and world-class restoration, believes that if Stradivari were building instruments today, he would use Titebond Original
    He can believe what he wants .

  10. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to sunburst For This Useful Post:


  11. #7

    Default Re: Hide glue question

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    He can believe what he wants .
    Agreed! I've watched a few of Jerry Rosa's videos, and some of his repairs make me wince because he uses non-repairable techniques on valuable (especially old) instruments. I'd have thought that if an instrument has survived 50+ years then it deserves the kind of repair which will allow it to survive another 50 years at least.

    I've recently treated myself to a 1931 Gibson TG-0 which could do with a neck reset, and I'll definitely be using hot hide glue so that whoever needs to reset it in another 90 years will be able to do so.

    In answer to the original post, I don't think I'd use HHG in a kitchen. Anything which won't be knocked and pulled about will be exposed to damp, and as John Hamlett has a already explained neither is good for HHG. Titebond Original or some decent PVA if it might need to be repaired down the line, like a chair, something water-resistant for worktops.

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ProfChris For This Useful Post:


  13. #8

    Default Re: Hide glue question

    All of the above. Cherry is pretty stuff that I wouldn’t think to use for utilitarian or painted surfaces, although a showpiece workbench could be very nice. The last couple of decades in the hobby woodworking arena has seen workbench design flourish and expensive versions (as expensive as mandolins) sold. I’ll admit to being actually proud of my so far unused construct.
    Now I don’t make a living fixing string instruments, so just a punk in this area, but I have watched two or three Rosa videos that seemed, well, amateurish or just wrong.
    Certainly compared with the solid information on this here website.

  14. #9
    Registered User Tom Haywood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    PTC GA
    Posts
    1,348

    Default Re: Hide glue question

    Thanks to Sunburst for an excellent overall description. I am heating up some hide glue now to use on the only thing I use it for regularly on string instruments - gluing in the label. And I might switch to white glue for that. In short, due to past experiences I don't use hide glue for any joint that is working against any substantial stress. That is pretty much every joint on a mandolin. Mandolins aren't really designed to be taken apart, like violins are. I'd rather that mine stay together 100 years. To me, it is often easier to take apart a Titebond Original joint than a hide glue joint. I guess any possible sonic difference between the two doesn't apply to kitchen shelves and furniture. YMMV. I will say that hide glue requires practice, so any opportunity to practice with it is good.
    Tom

    "Feel the wood."
    Luthier Page: Facebook

  15. #10
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    DeKalb, IL
    Posts
    3,633

    Default Re: Hide glue question

    I've been building cabinets and furniture, as a living, since 1974. Instruments since 1978. For your project, there would be no question: Titebond Original. Fair amount of open time and way less hassle than using hide glue. When gluing up your panels, make sure you flip every other board so any future warping is balanced, wavy, rather than a big arc.

  16. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Dale Ludewig For This Useful Post:


  17. #11
    Adrian Minarovic
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Banska Bystrica, Slovakia, Europe
    Posts
    3,461

    Default Re: Hide glue question

    I agree with most above but I would add some thoughts.
    Violins are not designed to be disassembled. Most cheaper violins can be nastier to open than a "Titebonded" guitar with binding covering the joint. On violin the joint is visible and any chipping is there to be seen. Good violin makers use intentionally weaker hide glue to glue tops and backs just to allow disassembly. On the most valuable violins they strive to use as weak glue as possible without the instrument falling apart, really. Just to be safe when top needs to be removed it will go without cracking or other damage. On majority of violins assembled in workshops or factories where just one strength of glue is in the pot these joints will be pretty hard to disassemble without vast experience and very slow progress. Best violin restorers have vast experience opening fiddles (pretty much daily routine for them) so it may appear simple job and looks like they are designed to be opened but that is not so. In comparison mandolin or guitar restorers try to repair without opening whenever possible, opening is typically the last resort.
    Hide glue is more water resistant than many folks think. I pulled a wide spruce board from southern side of a woodshed at out weekend house that has been exposed to all kind of weather for nearly 80 years only to find that it was glued from two pieces, it had crack down the joint for lower half of its length and the upper half of joint that was sheltered by roof from direct rain was still intact (and invisible). The board came from old clothes chest from before WW2 (judging by the decorations and edges with dovetails) so it was certainly glued with HHG (I found HHG on all window frmes of the house as well). Standing water on a worktop would certainly kill any joint unless the wood is very well protected by good oil or such. It is mostly twisting wood that destroys joints, not direct exposure of glue to water.
    BTW, there are simple crosslinking additives that render HHG absoluely water resistant and even stronger than normal.
    Adrian

  18. The following members say thank you to HoGo for this post:


  19. #12
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    SD
    Posts
    3,658

    Default Re: Hide glue question

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Ludewig View Post
    I've been building cabinets and furniture, as a living, since 1974. Instruments since 1978. For your project, there would be no question: Titebond Original. Fair amount of open time and way less hassle than using hide glue. When gluing up your panels, make sure you flip every other board so any future warping is balanced, wavy, rather than a big arc.
    I always flip the boards, I was thinking of HHG only for the ease I found with glue-ups. I tend to clamp titebond more than HHG. I just don't have that many clamps but maybe I just need to buckle down and make a glueing table for this use. What I liked about HHG was how it seemed I could glue a nicely fitted joint with minimal clamping, it just seemed to draw the pieces together.

    Thanks, everyone. Like I mentioned I used to use only yellow wood glue, then got some titebond which seemed to work well also and use HHG as well I never really looked into what glue was better for which situation. Something I will rectify now.
    My avatar is of my OldWave Oval A

    Creativity is just doing something wierd and finding out others like it.

  20. #13

    Default Re: Hide glue question

    Not an answer to the question but “The Chemistry and Technology of Gelatin and Glue” by Robert Herman Bogue is a good read for those of us that work with old wooden things. It was published in 1922 as a technical reference for industry. I have an original copy I got while in college but it’s public domain now so you can search google books and read it electronically.

  21. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Patrick Toole For This Useful Post:


  22. #14
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,077

    Default Re: Hide glue question

    The longer I work on instruments, the more I use hide glue, and the less I use Titebond.
    But- If I were to build a piece of furniture, I would probably choose Titebond.

  23. The following members say thank you to rcc56 for this post:


  24. #15

    Default Re: Hide glue question

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Toole View Post
    ... It was published in 1922 as a technical reference for industry. I have an original copy I got while in college ...
    Congrats, Patrick on being the world's oldest living person!!!

  25. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Jeff Mando For This Useful Post:


  26. #16
    Adrian Minarovic
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Banska Bystrica, Slovakia, Europe
    Posts
    3,461

    Default Re: Hide glue question

    The Keystone company handbook on hide glue is very good resource for everything you want to know about old fashioned HHG and some things you don't ;-)
    Can be found online on several places...
    https://archive.org/details/GlueHandbook/mode/2up
    Adrian

  27. The following members say thank you to HoGo for this post:


  28. #17
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    South of Cleburne, North of Hillsboro, Texas
    Posts
    5,089

    Default Re: Hide glue question

    Just to say there seem to be the impression in a few of the posts that aliphatic resin glue joints are non-reversible - this is not the case. Most of those glues are both thermoplastic (can be released by heat) and susceptible to the acid in vinegar.
    WWW.THEAMATEURMANDOLINIST.COM
    ----------------------------------
    "Life is short. Play hard." - AlanN

    ----------------------------------
    HEY! The Cafe has Social Groups, check 'em out. I'm in these groups:
    Newbies Social Group | The Song-A-Week Social
    The Woodshed Study Group | Blues Mando
    - Advice For Mandolin Beginners
    - YouTube Stuff

  29. #18

    Default Re: Hide glue question

    Quote Originally Posted by HoGo View Post
    The Keystone company handbook on hide glue is very good resource for everything you want to know about old fashioned HHG and some things you don't ;-)
    Can be found online on several places...
    https://archive.org/details/GlueHandbook/mode/2up
    Just looked at this. And I thought that I was wordy! Amazing verbiage with almost no useful information, but fun woodcuts. Good thing a horse wasn’t looking over my shoulder.

  30. #19
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    15,863

    Default Re: Hide glue question

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    Just to say there seem to be the impression in a few of the posts that aliphatic resin glue joints are non-reversible - this is not the case. Most of those glues are both thermoplastic (can be released by heat) and susceptible to the acid in vinegar.
    Anyone who has done lots of instrument repairs for years knows how easy it is to release Titebond (and similar glues). It is one of the things that reinforced my tendency to use hide glue for most instrument joints.
    Some of the most difficult joints I've had to release have been very old Martin guitar bridge to top joints and very old Gibson fingerboard joints. A well made and well preserved hide glue joint can be extremely difficult to release.

    When we squeeze Titebond from a bottle we get pretty much the same thing every time, unless we let the glue sit around in the shop so long that it deteriorates in the bottle. When we dissolve hide glue in water we don't necessarily have the same thing each time; maybe a little more water maybe a little less, maybe a little cleaner water, maybe not. Once that glue is hot in the glue pot, we may keep it longer or use it up faster, we may overheat it... there are things that can cause deterioration of the glue in the pot. Maybe we let it cool to much while assembling the joint, etc.. In short, there are lots of thing that we can do to make our hide glue less effective that don't apply to squeezing AR glue from a bottle. It's hard to know how often that happened in instrument factories in the days before plastic glues, but it certainly happened some times. Between that and the inevitable compromised joint from time to time there are plenty of examples of failure to fuel the critics of hide glue and proponents of plastic glues. When we gain experience with glue types we tend to learn what glue is good where and which suits our own situation best. Some of us just stick with what we're used to (see what I did there?).

    I have plenty of anecdotal stories of difficulties that I've had releasing hide glue, and of Titebond failures, and vise versa. None of that is particularly important. The bottom line is Hide glue is good for specific things, Titebond is good for specific things, other glues and adhesives are good for specific things, there is a lot of overlap, and different people use different things.

    If I had three projects to do:

    1. a mandolin
    2. a work bench
    3. a wooden canoe

    I would choose hide glue for one, Titebond for one, and epoxy for one. It shouldn't be too hard to figure our which is which.

  31. The following members say thank you to sunburst for this post:


  32. #20
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    Posts
    1,249

    Default Re: Hide glue question

    I agree that Titebond can be made to release fairly easily, cleanup to re-glue can be another matter. That is another attribute of hide glue; it glues well to itself.

  33. The following members say thank you to Nevin for this post:


  34. #21
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    S.W. Wisconsin
    Posts
    7,507

    Default Re: Hide glue question

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevin View Post
    I agree that Titebond can be made to release fairly easily, cleanup to re-glue can be another matter. That is another attribute of hide glue; it glues well to itself.
    +1
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

  35. The following members say thank you to pops1 for this post:

    Nevin 

  36. #22

    Default Re: Hide glue question

    Just to say there seem to be the impression in a few of the posts that aliphatic resin glue joints are non-reversible - this is not the case. Most of those glues are both thermoplastic (can be released by heat) and susceptible to the acid in vinegar.

    Does vinegar (acetic acid) help clean it up, or re-activate it so it can stick to itself? And does it damage finishes?

  37. #23
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    15,863

    Default Re: Hide glue question

    Acetic acid does, in fact dissolve dried AR (and hide glue). It is the active ingredient in De-Glue Goo, and simple vinegar can also clean up old glue. I do not trust it to "reactivate" old glue for joining.
    Larry McNeil (hope I spelled that correctly), the guy who developed De-Glue Goo, and former employer of mine, said he has seen it make FP/shellac finishes blush slightly, but gentle heat removed the blush easily. Other than that he has seen no finish damage from it.

  38. The following members say thank you to sunburst for this post:


  39. #24
    Adrian Minarovic
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Banska Bystrica, Slovakia, Europe
    Posts
    3,461

    Default Re: Hide glue question

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard500 View Post
    Does vinegar (acetic acid) help clean it up, or re-activate it so it can stick to itself? And does it damage finishes?
    Not real re-activation, but I once removed badly warped bridge from guitar using heat to soften the glue and decided to clamp it to flat board while it was still hot after removal and the bridge stuck surprisingly strong to the wood by just the leftover heated glue on the surface...
    Adrian

  40. #25
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    15,863

    Default Re: Hide glue question

    Quote Originally Posted by HoGo View Post
    ...decided to clamp it to flat board while it was still hot after removal and the bridge stuck surprisingly strong to the wood by just the leftover heated glue on the surface...
    I've done that with loose veneers and loose Titebond joints of various description. When heated it behaves similarly to hot melt glue. We can heat a joint to loosen it, re-position and clamp, and when cool we have adjusted the joint. I have my doubts that the strength approaches a well made undisturbed joint, but sometimes things need to be re-positioned so repairs can proceed.

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •