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Thread: Rubner tuners on Eastman MD305?

  1. #26
    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rubner tuners on Eastman MD305?

    Quote Originally Posted by mandroid View Post
    Burning it in a lined fry pan . (or solid fuel booster section gaskets on the challenger space shuttle)

    Cant be healthy .. Passive just sitting there, or suspended in Triflow chain oil Not ingested.. less of an issue ..
    First off, those Space Shuttle gaskets (O-rings) that failed during the infamous Challenger launch were made from something called FKM, which is a polymeric fluroelastomer. This is not the same chemical compound as PTFE (Teflon), which is a lubricant found in Tri-Flow. Incidentally, those Space Shuttle gaskets were surrounded by a special flame-proof putty that contained asbestos (which is carcinogenic). When the O-ring gaskets burned through, the resulting explosion of the rocket fuel is what blew up the shuttle. The fluorocarbons found in the O-rings and the asbestos in the putty never posed a health hazard in-and-of themselves during the disaster, of course.

    Second, the melting point of Teflon is a whopping 621 F. It is not easy to melt this coating in a frying pan unless you leave the pan empty over the highest possible heat for quite a while. And even if you manage to melt it, it won't "burn," as you said. To get Teflon to depolymerize, you need temperatures above 1,000F! If you have "burned" Teflon in a pan, the chances are pretty good that it was actually the pan contents that burned, not the Teflon. Or perhaps the pan itself, or its handle.

    Third, Teflon at room temperature, such as the material used in Tri-Flow lubricant, is almost entirely chemically inert, and it does not out-gas. It is not carcinogenic! Nor does it give off carcinogenic fumes, even when heated to the point where wood would start to burn.

    Let's not forget that wood dust from many species of wood can be directly toxic when inhaled, and most wood dust is carcinogenic, regardless of the species. Luthiers and carpenters, who are exposed to wood dust in their work, need to be concerned about this. But should you be worried about getting cancer from the wood in your mandolin? Of course not! Playing the mandolin does not expose your lungs to significant quantities of wood dust.

    Similarly, lubricating your tuners does not expose you to significant quantities of carcinogenic organic compounds, like those found in all petroleum-based household lubricants, nor does it expose you to significant quantities of Teflon, either, if you happen to use Tri-Flow. The vapor pressure of these lubricants is simply too low to pose a breathing hazard. Besides, as we have seen, Teflon is not even carcinogenic in the first place.

    A little chemistry knowledge beats a lot of social media disinformation!
    Last edited by sblock; Apr-22-2021 at 9:40pm.

  2. #27

    Default Re: Rubner tuners on Eastman MD305?

    For the lay-person, Mark Ruffalo stars in a major motion picture Dark Waters from 2019 playing a lawyer with 20 years of research against DuPont in rural West Virginia where they make Teflon and dump by products into the local river causing cancer in people, death and mutation in hundreds of cows, causing Teflon to be taken off the market.

    AGREED, there is a difference between drinking chemicals and using it as a lube on tuners.

    For Pete's sake, my father's favorite solvent was gasoline, which he used for everything from cleaning bicycle chains, to removing paint, cleaning paint brushes, heck, he even washed his hands in it to remove grease........worked great for 50+ years, oh yeah, he died of cancer..........caused by, who knows? He was an accountant and worked in an office building......so?

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  4. #28
    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rubner tuners on Eastman MD305?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post
    For the lay-person, Mark Ruffalo stars in a major motion picture Dark Waters from 2019 playing a lawyer with 20 years of research against DuPont in rural West Virginia where they make Teflon and dump by products into the local river causing cancer in people, death and mutation in hundreds of cows, causing Teflon to be taken off the market.

    AGREED, there is a difference between drinking chemicals and using it as a lube on tuners.

    For Pete's sake, my father's favorite solvent was gasoline, which he used for everything from cleaning bicycle chains, to removing paint, cleaning paint brushes, heck, he even washed his hands in it to remove grease........worked great for 50+ years, oh yeah, he died of cancer..........caused by, who knows? He was an accountant and worked in an office building......so?
    The film Dark Waters retells (with a number of Hollywood embellishments) the true story of a lawsuit against DuPont, for their pollution of a Virginia river with PFOA (perfluoro-octanoic acid), which is something I already mentioned in Post #24. PFOA is carcinogen, and it used to be used in the making of Teflon (but no longer). It also takes fairly high levels of PFOA to cause cancer. PFOA has been banned in any Teflon products since 2013.

    But Teflon itself is NOT carcinogenic. And Teflon was never "taken off the market." (That might have been a fictional plot point of the film.) If there was any lapse in production, it was likely to clean up their act to prevent further PFOA pollution. Besides, other manufacturers make PTFE, too. Teflon is made today by a different process: one without PFOA.

    Now, breathing in gasoline fumes, which many of us used to do all the time while filling up at gas stations, is today considered hazardous, and there are fume-recovery systems at all gas stations now. Gasoline is a powerful solvent, but it contains all manner of nasty organic compounds. We don't tend to degrease our hands -- or wash paintbrushes -- in it any more, that's for sure.

    Teflon is safe. If anything, it's the main ingredients that are found in ALL common, oil-based lubricants (and the propellants, if these come in spray bottles) that pose the greater health hazards -- but only if those lubricants are somehow inhaled or ingested. But no one should be inhaling or ingesting this stuff!
    Last edited by sblock; Apr-22-2021 at 9:42pm.

  5. #29
    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rubner tuners on Eastman MD305?

    Previous Schallers were fine. have several A's & a Deluxe F ..

    New Grand Tunes look good too . German precision & efficient manufacturing.
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  6. #30
    Registered User Eric Platt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rubner tuners on Eastman MD305?

    Quote Originally Posted by mandroid View Post
    Previous Schallers were fine. have several A's & a Deluxe F ..

    New Grand Tunes look good too . German precision & efficient manufacturing.
    They do look nice. Also twice the price of Grover 309 tuners. At that point, am not sure they'd be the best choice for the OP.

    Thing is, and this has been brought up many times, the stock tuners on the Eastman seem to have a lot more leeway for quality control. Some folks have no problem with them, others, well, not so much. I still think tuner replacement shouldn't be looked at as a bad thing. Even on some good mandolins folks run into problems. If new tuners solve it for them, great.
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  7. #31
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rubner tuners on Eastman MD305?

    Let me put this in perspective. It's your instrument. You can whatever you want with it. If Rubner's are what you want and you can get them, go for it. Personally I love hot rods.
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

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  9. #32
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    Default Re: Rubner tuners on Eastman MD305?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    Let me put this in perspective. It's your instrument. You can whatever you want with it. If Rubner's are what you want and you can get them, go for it. Personally I love hot rods.
    I agree Mike, just save the original gears and switch them out if you end up selling the Eastman. You can re-use the Rubners' on another mandolin.
    Cabin Fever String Band, Bill Gorby and the Musical Mercenaries

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  11. #33

    Default Re: Rubner tuners on Eastman MD305?

    OP FOLLOWUP:
    As I sit typing, my MD305 hangs around my neck with a new set of $72 Rubner tuners installed. (The pandemic has been great for my playing, I tilt the cam up a bit, mute the mic and nobody knows I am running scales during the endless zoom meetings.) As someone posted, I had to counter-bore, (in my case, I gently used a reamer) and drill an additional screw hole per side. I kept the original bushings in place. Little did I know this would spark a digression into movie references and carcinogen debates.

    All that aside, I quite like the Rubner's, thanks to everyone for the suggestions and advice.

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  13. #34
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rubner tuners on Eastman MD305?

    Very cool.
    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them". These are the words of J. Garber.

  14. #35

    Default Re: Rubner tuners on Eastman MD305?

    300-series is the bottom of the - Eastman - line, which is clearly delineated from 300s to 900s. We all understand itís a good quality instrument and much beloved by many owners. They donít make any junk. When I got my 505 in 2009 or so, the 500s were the bottom of the Eastman line, the 300s and 400s were introduced a few years later because prices were going up, as the brand got more established and they needed to introduce some more budget-minded options and didnt want to do it by cheapening the features of their existing lines. A rather honourable and transparent way to do business, imho.
    BTW from experience with the 505 (which has the same Ping tuners as the 305) I would suggest the Grover 309s, they fit perfectly, you dont even have to change the bushings, and you will like the difference in tunability. Cheers.
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  15. #36

    Default Re: Rubner tuners on Eastman MD305?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post

    NFI in either product.

    Kinda makes ya wonder what Gibson used 120 years ago? I'm guessing 3-in-1 oil or the equivalent......

    a minor pet peeve of mine, thankfully stopped just short of a rant.
    Anything short of a rant from you is a disappointment to me, Jeff. Please get yer high gudgeon on, soon.
    2009 Eastman 505
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    Mandoline or Mandolin: Similar to the lute, but much less artistically valuable....for people who wish to play simple music without much trouble óThe Oxford Companion to Music

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  17. #37

    Default Re: Rubner tuners on Eastman MD305?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Cameron View Post
    Anything short of a rant from you is a disappointment to me, Jeff. Please get yer high gudgeon on, soon.
    Thanks, Bill! Just having fun and cheap therapy for me. Obviously, just as there are many styles of great music and players, there can be more than one correct answer to these questions. And, as long as we are arguing concepts and approaches to solving problems, there is no need for anyone to take this stuff personally or too seriously. (unlike other "musical" forums where 4-letter words are normal responses -- who wants to deal with that?)

    All joking aside, there are some world-class mandolin experts on the Cafe daily and it is a rare day that I don't learn something from someone. I hope I can add to the discussion points, as well as add some humor, when appropriate.

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