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Thread: Unsigned Loar on Reveb

  1. #26
    My Florida is scooped pheffernan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unsigned Loar on Reveb

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    Me, if I could go back in time and learn about one thing from the Gibson of the pre-war days, it would be how the instruments were finished, including as much info as possible about the specific techniques and materials used.
    Bill Halsey had a thoughtful post on this subject:

    https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...ibson-Finishes
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  2. #27
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    Default Re: Unsigned Loar on Reveb

    Yes, I read those old threads with great interest. Unfortunately, when I've searched for an available finish that is moderately similar to the now very old fashioned Benjamin Moore product, I have come up with nothing. It seems that most of those old style varnishes have been discontinued. Any tips on an available modern product of that type will be most welcome.

    As far as what I've experienced from working with the old Gibson finishes, here are my observations:
    For restoration work on both varnished and lacquered instruments, I have gotten excellent color matches with aniline dyes.
    I've found at least some of the varnishes from the 1910's to be alcohol sensitive.
    And I'm just guessing about this: The old Sheraton brown varnish finishes seem to have a different texture than other varnish finishes from the same period. Perhaps a different base? I don't know.

    Despite a few occasional lapses, those Gibson guys were really good with both varnishes and lacquers.

    I know that Lynn Dudenbostel swore by Pratt and Lambert "38 Varnish," which has been discontinued. He described to me as an "alkyd based oil varnish." I don't know what he is using now.

    I believe that during Gibson's pre-war years, they used quite a few different techniques to produce their colored finishes. Sometimes, it appears that the color is in the wood, sometimes in the finish, and sometimes in both. That's about as far as I've gotten, except that I was able to reproduce 30's Gibson brown on a 1937 Roy Smeck neck that I recarved by observing the old finish as I stripped it.

    The recipe for the 30's brown finish was 1] brown aniline alcohol dye on the bare wood to about the same darkness as the rosewood fingerboard, 2] Cardinal rosewood alkyd pore filler from LMI, 3] wash coat of thin shellac, 4] nitro color coats dyed with aniline dyes, mostly brown, and a little red added when the work developed a mild green cast, 5] clear nitro top coats. Most of the actual spraying was done by my old-time cabinetmaker friend, who's really good with nitro in a spray gun. We got a 95% color match, which is better than one can hope for.

    Of course, the above '30's brown finish is completely different from the early mandolin finishes, but it might give some helpful insight to those working on pre-war Gibson flat top guitars.

    I'll add this-- I'm noticing that the peghead finishes on some of the very early teens [1910 - 1912] Gibson are deteriorating noticeably. Is anyone else seeing this?

    I won't apologize for thread drift. How much more can be said about F-5's without signature labels?
    Last edited by rcc56; May-01-2021 at 12:38am.

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  4. #28
    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unsigned Loar on Reveb

    That post from Bill Halsey with the shot of the BM varnish can reminded me that I have the label from one of his cans on my old mandolin case!
    Timothy F. Lewis
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  5. #29
    Registered User T.D.Nydn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unsigned Loar on Reveb

    What also is interesting is that the case comes with the olive canvas case cover,which I rarely see...

  6. #30

    Default Re: Unsigned Loar on Reveb

    Quote Originally Posted by T.D.Nydn View Post
    What also is interesting is that the case comes with the olive canvas case cover,which I rarely see...
    I noticed that. Nice!

  7. #31
    Registered User Glassweb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unsigned Loar on Reveb

    What are known as the "unsigned Loars" did not, as far as I know, have a lacquer finish or white plastic used anywhere on them for binding. The "true" "unsigned Loars" were, as Bill Smith and others have said, finished with Loar era varnish and constructed with ivoroid bindings. Notice that the headstock on this mandolin has a headstock bound in ivoroid as opposed to the white plastic used on all the later Ferns as well as (interestingly enough) the "Fern Loars" from the March 31st batch (and there were even a couple from that batch that had flowerpot inlays as opposed to Fern inlays!). Confused yet? I have owned Loars, a "Fern Loar" (March 31st 1924 batch), a Flowerpot, white-plastic bound Loar from the March 31st batch (which I nicknamed "Scratchy"), a "true unsigned Loar" (the famous Aubrey Hayney cannon) and a bunch of other Loar and post-Loar F5s... both Ferns and Flowerpots. I have even played that rare 1922 signed Loar with a Fern inlay (a fantastic instrument) that live up here in the San Juan Islands.

    While all the facts regarding Loar and post-Loar F5 mandolins are certainly interesting, at the end of the day is the bottom line that the majority of these instruments were and are amazingly well-made, great sounding tools for the mandolinists of yesterday and today.

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  9. #32

    Default Re: Unsigned Loar on Reveb

    Just to clarify........it seems some members here are saying there are no such thing(s) as an "unsigned Loar" while others seem to use the term freely to communicate with others who seem to be "in the know." Not being stubborn, just trying to understand.

    To simplify, is an "unsigned Loar" an F-5 that was started while Lloyd Loar was employed at Gibson and "would have been" signed had he remained there and displays the proper Loar Era hallmarks?

    We recently had a post here about made in Japan "lawsuit" era instruments. Some folks say "there was no lawsuit, end of story" while others find the term useful for describing mid 70's made in Japan copy instruments, FWIW.

    OTOH, and unrelated, 40 years later I'm still on the fence whether or not "rap" is even music.......art, sure; poetry, maybe; fashion, sure; entertainment, sure; big business, definitely, music, not sure!

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  11. #33
    Registered User Glassweb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unsigned Loar on Reveb

    Hi Jeff... I certainly agree with all your sharp insights regarding rap and hip-hop. But back to "unsigned Loars"...

    This is really just a term that Loar fans/owners/Gibson historians etc... use to describe a limited bunch of Gibson F5 mandolins that display all the build characteristics of the Loar era F5s (including, of course, a "Master Model" label) but do not contain a Lloyd Loar signed label within the instrument. The true Loar historians may want to chime in here as they probably know way more than I do and/or have their own opinions about this term. People like Tom Isenhour, Darryl Wolfe, Tony Williamson, David Grisman, Herschel Sizemore, Walter Carter, Larry Wexer, Adam Kreiswirth, George Gruhn, Ken Waltham, William Smith, Steve Gilchrist and many others have owned, played and inspected this batch of instruments and may have more advanced or differing opinions. Given that there are even "true" "Loar-era" F5s that differ from what we may consider "normal spec" F5s (for example the strange, March 31st batch) it does, indeed, get kind of confusing!

    I would not call the instrument that is the focus of this thread an "unsigned Loar".

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  13. #34
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    Default Re: Unsigned Loar on Reveb

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post

    To simplify, is an "unsigned Loar" an F-5 that was started while Lloyd Loar was employed at Gibson and "would have been" signed had he remained there and displays the proper Loar Era hallmarks?


    Yes, that's the way the term is supposed to be used. The people who coined the term are assuming that these instruments would have been signed if Loar had been there.

    My questions are 1] "How do you know?" and 2] "What legitimacy is there in attempting to increase the value on an instrument based upon a signature and a label that does not exist?"

    Perhaps they would have been signed. Perhaps they were not up to spec and would not have been signed in any case.

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  15. #35
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    Default Re: Unsigned Loar on Reveb

    Well, all I can say is that in my mind a signed Loar has more value in the marketplace than one of the "unsigned Loars". Regardless the quality of the instrument...

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    Default Re: Unsigned Loar on Reveb

    I share the same point of view.
    The way I look at it, any attempt to assign value to a characteristic that does not exist is plain old-fashioned market manipulation.

  18. #37

    Default Re: Unsigned Loar on Reveb

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post
    OTOH, and unrelated, 40 years later I'm still on the fence whether or not "rap" is even music.......art, sure; poetry, maybe; fashion, sure; entertainment, sure; big business, definitely, music, not sure!
    My dad grew up with oldtime fiddle/banjo music (and mandolin), but... he said the first time he heard big-band music, he thought it was "just noise", not music. Even though big band was popular for a number of years, my dad never changed his opinion of it.

    You can only imagine his later shock and horror over the newfangled 'noise' that subsequently appeared in the 1950s and 1960s, which people now weirdly think of as "classic" (rock).

    There was one modern song he liked though. Before he went into the hospital (terminal illness) for the last time in 1993, he asked me to bring him a cassette copy of the early 1970s song "Drift Away" by Dobie Gray. He'd heard it in a store somewhere once, and he found comfort in the lyrics and the music.


    Quote Originally Posted by mrmando View Post
    I've gotten lots of birthday cards over the years but Lloyd Loar never signed any of them. It just dawned on me that these are unsigned Loar birthday cards!

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    Default Re: Unsigned Loar on Reveb

    Yes there are only a handful of true "Unsigned" Loar F-5's! They are all in Varnish finish with the Dark Cremona shades of color, I think all have Gold plated hardware with the same tuners, hardware tailpiece assembly, and guard bracket as the true Loar signed MM's! And some have the Virzi, some don't and I believe only one has the Fern peg head inlay and I ? that as an Unsigned Fern as I really didn't look too close at that ole Gal? The others have the Flowerpot peg head inlay like the Loar signed 5's! Myself I wouldn't mind having one if the price was right! I've heard the vintage mando market is a bit down but it'll go up again at some point as there are only so many originals and they sure aren't making anymore Loars or early Ferns and pre-war F-5's and such!

    What are super clean original "Unsigned Loars" selling for these days? I know real clean and original Loar F-5's vary in price but I know a few that are selling for the asking prices of 80-90K? Pretty sweet deals I think!

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  22. #39
    Registered User T.D.Nydn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unsigned Loar on Reveb

    Ok,so signed or unsigned whatever ,,what years could this be ?

  23. #40
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    Default Re: Unsigned Loar on Reveb

    Late 1924-early 1925 would be the "Unsigned" Loars!

  24. #41
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    Default Re: Unsigned Loar on Reveb

    Whatever it is,,would you date this mandolin around that time?

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    Default Re: Unsigned Loar on Reveb

    That one on Reverb-well gone now, I'd say 1926?

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    Default Re: Unsigned Loar on Reveb

    Quote Originally Posted by T.D.Nydn View Post
    Ok,so signed or unsigned whatever ,,what years could this be ?

    See post #5.

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    Default Re: Unsigned Loar on Reveb

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Gray View Post
    An unsigned Loar came up on Reverb. It looks to be serial #82937. It's not listed in the Mandolin Archive.

    https://reverb.com/item/40248902-gib...-original-case

    I noticed #82933 in the Mandolin Archive has the same order number (#8231).

    Does that mean they were ordered together?
    What a beautiful old Gibson, if it has tone to match the Look im in, I have played 2 signed Loars and neither one made me feel like buying, still hunting.
    Best.....

  30. #45
    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unsigned Loar on Reveb

    Now some of those early Ferns from say 1926-27 have a lot of Loar F-5 characteristics such as same type of super carving of the top and back plates-wood selection, hardware, not to mention a few used what I think are left over 3 piece necks from say 1922 Loar F-5's, they may have found laying around behind a bench or? We know Gibson used whatever was on hand-for sure in the depression era? Some have the complete Loar tone, and overall voice!

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  32. #46

    Default Re: Unsigned Loar on Reveb

    Quote Originally Posted by William Smith View Post
    That one on Reverb-well gone now, I'd say 1926?
    I wonder if calling it an "unsigned Loar" made it sell quicker?

  33. #47
    Ted Heinonen
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    Default Re: Unsigned Loar on Reveb

    Even if it's an A-style in the classifieds it seems to me there is a lot of fairy dust to go around when it comes to any Gibson mandolin that was built during the "Loar years"

  34. #48

    Default Re: Unsigned Loar on Reveb

    No guarantee it actually sold. I would think if you could afford that one you could have invested a little more and got an actual signed Loar. I think this was listed in the classifieds as well.

    https://reverb.com/item/10733631-gib...igned-mandolin

  35. #49
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unsigned Loar on Reveb

    I’m holding out for a signed one, but it has to be cherry red, like the F4s.

    Not holding my breath, orcwallet
    Not all the clams are at the beach

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  37. #50
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    Default Re: Unsigned Loar on Reveb

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post
    I wonder if calling it an "unsigned Loar" made it sell quicker?
    While it is marked "Listing Ended," it is not among the "sold" listings.

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