Neither, if you're Canadian.
Neither, if you're Canadian.
Emando.com: More than you wanted to know about electric mandolins.
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Lyon & Healy • Wood • Thormahlen • Andersen • Bacorn • Yanuziello • Fender • National • Gibson • Franke • Fuchs • Aceto • Three Hungry Pit Bulls
Oh you had to bring Steve Martin into this. He’s one of my favorite humans ever, enhanced by his banjo skills.
Aside from his many excellent standup routines and musical endeavors, I have to say he excelled in Roxane, LA Story, and a silly but hilarious performance in The Man With Two Brains.
Who'd have thought so many answers aboot a bowt.
Phoebe, my 2021 Collings MT mandolin
Dolly, my 2021 Ibanez M522 mandolin
Louise, my 193x SS Maxwell mandolin
Fiona, My 2021 GSM guitar-bodied octave resonator mandolin
Charlotte, my 2016 Eastman MDO 305 octave mandolin
And Giuliana, my 2002 Hans Schuster 505 violin, Nehenehe, my 2021 Aklot concert ukulele,
Annie, my 2022 Guild M-140 guitar, Joni, my 1963 Harmony 1215 Archtone archtop guitar,
Yoko, my ca. 1963 Yamaha Dynamic No.15 guitar, and Rich, my 1959 husband.
Or even hiccough!
John
Social Groups: FFcP, A Song-a-Week
ABC. Notation for the tabophobic: ABC intro, ABCexplorer, Making Music with ABC Plus by Guido Gonzato.
FFcP: Just do it! (Any genre, (Honest!) just ignore the jazz references.)
Eastman 604, 2007 | Thomas Buchanan Octave Mandolin, 2010
Who knew we had such a gaggle of linguists among us!
A gaggle of something, all right ... geese perhaps, honking and hiccoughing their way through rough, tough, thoroughly-coughed-up thoughts that ought to be sloughed off, because enough is enough!
Please don't encourage this behavior.
But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller
Furthering Mandolin Consciousness
Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!
Phoebe, my 2021 Collings MT mandolin
Dolly, my 2021 Ibanez M522 mandolin
Louise, my 193x SS Maxwell mandolin
Fiona, My 2021 GSM guitar-bodied octave resonator mandolin
Charlotte, my 2016 Eastman MDO 305 octave mandolin
And Giuliana, my 2002 Hans Schuster 505 violin, Nehenehe, my 2021 Aklot concert ukulele,
Annie, my 2022 Guild M-140 guitar, Joni, my 1963 Harmony 1215 Archtone archtop guitar,
Yoko, my ca. 1963 Yamaha Dynamic No.15 guitar, and Rich, my 1959 husband.
My department's graduate advisor, when introducing a few of us to new faculty or other students, would say something like, "This is Bruce, he's archeology; this is Melissa, she's primatology, and this is Sheila. She's psycho with linguistic tendencies." I hadn't thought about that in a long, long time.
Phoebe, my 2021 Collings MT mandolin
Dolly, my 2021 Ibanez M522 mandolin
Louise, my 193x SS Maxwell mandolin
Fiona, My 2021 GSM guitar-bodied octave resonator mandolin
Charlotte, my 2016 Eastman MDO 305 octave mandolin
And Giuliana, my 2002 Hans Schuster 505 violin, Nehenehe, my 2021 Aklot concert ukulele,
Annie, my 2022 Guild M-140 guitar, Joni, my 1963 Harmony 1215 Archtone archtop guitar,
Yoko, my ca. 1963 Yamaha Dynamic No.15 guitar, and Rich, my 1959 husband.
As a Southerner, I gently offer that I often find northern accents to be much less than gentle on the ear. In all their variety.
I've enjoyed this discussion that Sheila raised as I have been regularly puzzled by a Canadian colleague who quite wonderfully shares her thoughts aboot a range of topics.
A tiny bit painful, that.
But it is part of what makes English so enjoyable.
For us bowlback enthusiasts, we can all sympathize with Inspector Clouseau. "I'd like to buy an Embergher...." Me, too.
Mick
Ever tried, ever failed? No matter. Try again, fail again. Fail better.--Samuel Beckett
______________________
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And speaking of linguistics, there's a speech form that Canadians and no one else uses, called "Canadian raising" that consists of raising the tip of one's tongue from the lower back of the mouth to the upper front of the mouth as a person says "out" and "about." The sound is quite different from the sound of "oot" and "aboot," but because Americans can't say it as we do, that's how you folks interpret it. We get very tired of Americans telling us that we say "oot" and "aboot" but sounding very different from how we speak. I lived in Windsor, across the river from Detroit, and we Canadians could never understand how midwesterners put so many vowels in a one-syllable word, as in "Heyyy, may-yin"(Hey, man). It's not just about how people speak, but about how others hear. Anyway, you've had your first lesson in Canadian English. Apart from that, like Americans, we have many different dialects in Canada. At two extremes are English in Central Canada and Newfoundland -- many people don't even do Canadian raising there.
Robert Johnson's mother, describing blues musicians:
"I never did have no trouble with him until he got big enough to be round with bigger boys and off from home. Then he used to follow all these harp blowers, mandoleen (sic) and guitar players."
Lomax, Alan, The Land where The Blues Began, NY: Pantheon, 1993, p.14.
Ever tried, ever failed? No matter. Try again, fail again. Fail better.--Samuel Beckett
______________________
'05 Cuisinart Toaster
'93 Chuck Taylor lowtops
'12 Stetson Open Road
'06 Bialetti expresso maker
'14 Irish Linen Ramon Puig
To my UK tuned ear, West Coast Canadians often say something similar to 'aboot', but most of my Vancouver born relatives deny they do that. Is there some kind of cultural thing there that they think they don't?
Also, is 'Eh?' a general Canadian add-on, or is it regional?
I think I need to go paint the house!
(I don’t care if it’s sided, if I don’t do something soon the strain on my brain will make it a pain to explain)
Timothy F. Lewis
"If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett
Try saying "out" as I explained in post #37. Then say "oot" while pushing your lips forward and blowing your breath out. The sound is quite different. Every dialect group has similar trouble with sounds of other dialects. An English folk song called "Byker Hill" speaks of "Walker Shore" in Newcastle. Canadians and Americans generally hear "walk ashore" -- there have even been online discussions about what "walk ashore" means in its context. I think English people hear a difference between "Walker Shore" and "walk ashore" that we don't. I won't even get into Cornish speech here. They say "r' like Canadians and most Americans do.
I don't want to turn this into a Canadian linguistics course, but for those who are interested, there's a major dialect shift between Canadian English in Atlantic Canada, and Canadian English from Quebec City west. "Eh", at least in its persistent use and meany meanings, belongs to the second category, but even then it is used far more in Quebec and Ontario than in the west. Early immigrants in Atlantic Canada often came directly from the British Isles and Europe in groups, and settled in communities, to some degree retaining old county accents and dialects. I used to visit an Island off Cape Breton with English, Irish, and Scottish villages plus a mixed town, all with their own noticeable accents. The first mass of English-speaking settlers to Quebec and Ontario were United Empire Loyalists (known as "Tory traitors" in the U.S.), refugees from the American Revolution, mainly from Pennsylvania and New York State. They established the mainstream, west-of-the-Atlantic, English-Canadian dialect that new immigrants absorbed -- but don't ask me why we say "out" as we do. Of course, depending on settlement patterns, there are different accents and dialects across the country. When immigrants from one place settle in a small rural area, they retain more of their old speech habits. I've met people born in the Ottawa Valley who I thought were Irish immigrants. Newfoundlanders are mainly from Irish and West Country English (perhaps mixed with indigenous and French) background. The Codroy Valley in Nfld. was settled by Scottish, Gaelic-speaking farmers, who moved there after a generation or two in Cape Breton. In the 1970's, their English-speaking desendants used Scottish Gaelic terms for farm tools without even realizing they were doing it, but this usage was limited to the Codroy Valley.
Hmm... are we still on the Mandolin Cafe Forum?
Just to confuse things further:
If the links don't work, Google: "Oot And Aboot: Canadian Raising | Natural Canadian Accent".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5YJ...ANativeSpeaker
Last edited by Ranald; May-01-2021 at 12:06pm. Reason: additional info
Robert Johnson's mother, describing blues musicians:
"I never did have no trouble with him until he got big enough to be round with bigger boys and off from home. Then he used to follow all these harp blowers, mandoleen (sic) and guitar players."
Lomax, Alan, The Land where The Blues Began, NY: Pantheon, 1993, p.14.
Thanks Ranald, that's very interesting, no doot aboot it (apologies - a Canadian friend of my son used to say that self-deprecatingly.). The concept of 'Canadian Raising' on the vid explains it well. The 'raising' part also solves a little mystery from the South Parks cartoon that's puzzled me for some time...
I know this is getting seriously OT, so - MANDOLIN! There we go guys, back on it again...
Robert Johnson's mother, describing blues musicians:
"I never did have no trouble with him until he got big enough to be round with bigger boys and off from home. Then he used to follow all these harp blowers, mandoleen (sic) and guitar players."
Lomax, Alan, The Land where The Blues Began, NY: Pantheon, 1993, p.14.
A native German friend of mine, Peter, told of working in Canada in the early 1950s with another German friend of his, Herb. Their supervisor was a Scotsman with a full brogue. The Scotsman was having a shop meeting and said to Herb, "Set doon, Airby". Herbie asked Peter, in German, what the Scotsman had said and Peter responded "Setzen Sie hin."
Herb indignantly then told the foreman "That is not Set doon, it is Sit down!"
Now for the next can of worms.
Is it pronounced Mand o lin or Man da lin?
I've been wondering why no one has mentioned Scottish pronunciation of the "ou" diphthong, which seems to me roughly the same as the Canadian.
I pronounce "mandolin" just the way it's written - "mandolin." Live with it.
BTW & FWIW, the second place spot in today's running of the 147th Kentucky Derby was taken by 28-1 shot Mandaloun. Wish I'd known there was a horse named thus in the field more than ten minutes before post time, I might have plunked down a few bucks. Paid $23 for Place.
But I'll bet no one cares about anything other than the pronunciation. It followed the Canadian/Scottish model - "Mandaloon." Go figure.
But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller
Furthering Mandolin Consciousness
Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!
Ever tried, ever failed? No matter. Try again, fail again. Fail better.--Samuel Beckett
______________________
'05 Cuisinart Toaster
'93 Chuck Taylor lowtops
'12 Stetson Open Road
'06 Bialetti expresso maker
'14 Irish Linen Ramon Puig
The correct pronunciation is *man dough lynn* unless you're speaking about more than one.
Well, thank goodness few insist on such "correctness." The vast majority of the time I hear it spoken thus: "man da lin." So much so that when someone pronounces it "man do lin" it sounds like an affectation, overly fussy. And also, that's how I pronounce it.
Furthermore, online dictionaries disagree with that pronunciation. Every one I've looked at so far has the first pronunciation, one way or another, and the second one does not appear at all. I'm surprised at this, as I had always assumed just as you did. It's illuminating to look up things rather than rest on one's beliefs. One never knows what one will learn until one seeks an answer to a question.
Merriam-Webster presents it thus: man·do·lin | \ ˌman-də-ˈlin , ˈman-də-lən \
Lexico, Oxford's online presence, has it thus:ˌmandəˈlin/ /ˌmændəˈlɪn/ /ˈmandələn/ /ˈmændələn/
The Cambridge English Dictionary: US /ˌmæn.dəˈlɪn/ UK /ˌmæn.dəˈlɪn/
Dictionary.com does away with a vowel indication altogether: [ man-dl-in, man-dl-in ]
Also note the indicators for accented syllables. The Oxford and Cambridge entries provide audio examples as well. My favorite is Oxford #2, with the accent on the first syllable. Sometimes I'll accent the third syllable as well, but the first syllable will still be stressed more.
I refer to its use in song. Most of the time, it's with the unstressed second vowel sound. In Rod Stewart's "Mandolin Wind," Bruce Hornsby's "Mandolin Rain," and one of my favorite appearances in song, Tom Rush's "Hobo's Mandolin," every time the word is sung it is thusly.
The only exception I've found is Jimmy Buffett's "Something So Feminine About a Mandolin," which uses both pronunciations. For most of the song he says "man da lin," then inexplicably changes it at the end to "man do lin."
It may have something to do with the term being used in lines with a slightly different meter. Not sure. I'd ask him, but he barely remembers the song, as evidenced here:
http://www.buffettnews.com/2020/08/01/29151/
Interesting factoid: He's performed the song live only once, June 14th, 1977.
Rod Stewart pronounces it almost as "man di lin."
The point I'm trying to make is, right or wrong, it's pronounced "incorrectly" most of the time, so much so that I believe, and dictionaries confirm this, this has become the preferred pronunciation. It rolls off the tongue just a wee bit more easily.
But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller
Furthering Mandolin Consciousness
Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!
Robert Johnson's mother, describing blues musicians:
"I never did have no trouble with him until he got big enough to be round with bigger boys and off from home. Then he used to follow all these harp blowers, mandoleen (sic) and guitar players."
Lomax, Alan, The Land where The Blues Began, NY: Pantheon, 1993, p.14.
Not that I think you were being the slightest bit serious but I assume he was talking aboot the "oh" sound as in "man dough nollij."
(Sorry, Lee - he was already 2/3 of the way there. Now stop spinning and rest in peace.)
PS: So, then, how do you pronoonce "bough?" I'm a bit confoonded.
PPS: Yes, I love English, though it's challenging sometimes. And I think it's not reciprocated.
But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller
Furthering Mandolin Consciousness
Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!
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