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Thread: F4 Headstock veneers - ebony?

  1. #1
    Mandolingerer Bazz Jass's Avatar
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    Default F4 Headstock veneers - ebony?

    I can't seem to find this info quickly.

    Are the veneers on the front and back of an F4 headstock ebony?

    I know on other Gibson instruments the veneer was a different type of wood (pearwood, holly?) painted black.

    Thanks.

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: F4 Headstock veneers - ebony?

    F4s on which I have done extensive peghead work had dyed-black (actually sort of greenish dark gray) mystery wood that was then painted black. I think it might vary by year with some of them not painted. I don't think Gibson ever used ebony on F4s.
    Last edited by sunburst; May-08-2021 at 7:37pm. Reason: re-correct autocorrect

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    Default Re: F4 Headstock veneers - ebony?

    At least through the early to mid 1920's, they are a dyed mystery wood, often called "dyed pearwood," which is a misnomer. They may have overcoated the whole thing with some sort of black varnish [it might have been called "paint"], then scraped the inlays and finished off with clear varnish top coats. But I don't think they used anything very similar to what we now call paint, it would have been difficult to scrape accurately. But I have to bear in mind that 100 years ago, paint was very different from what we can buy now.

    I can't say for sure what they used in the 1930's. The technique might have been more or less the same, but if they used a black overcoat, they might have changed the base to lacquer. The top coats would most likely have been the same lacquer clear coat used on the rest of the instrument.

    I agree with John that they did not use ebony overlays on any F-4. I'm not sure Gibson ever used ebony overlays on anything throughout their entire history. At some point much later in the 20th century, they changed over to "black fiber" overlays.

    I just re-worked one, using alcohol soluble aniline dye on the bare wood. I rubbed in some more dye after I "loaded" the bare wood with pumice and thin shellac, and cleaned off the inlays immediately. I believe I had to repeat the process. Then I French polished it with 90% shellac and 10% sandarac. I added some amber dye to the bottom coat, then switched to clear. I don't know if my solution is "historically correct," but it came out pretty well.
    Last edited by rcc56; May-08-2021 at 6:51pm.

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  6. #4
    Mandolingerer Bazz Jass's Avatar
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    Default Re: F4 Headstock veneers - ebony?

    Thanks guys. This is exactly the info I was after

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    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: F4 Headstock veneers - ebony?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bazz Jass View Post
    I can't seem to find this info quickly.

    Are the veneers on the front and back of an F4 headstock ebony?

    I know on other Gibson instruments the veneer was a different type of wood (pearwood, holly?) painted black.

    Thanks.
    I would say veneers. I believe the inlays were done on pressure black dyed veneer rectangle by cutting out holes with sharp knife and adding the inlays perhaps held in place with paper tape only like was often done in common inlaid veneering techniques. I've seen this also in pictures from old Czech factories dating into late 40's. I think this was likely maple showing tiny specks of medullaries like on common peeled type of veneer. This veneer was almost certainly not sawn but peeled. Could be aslo pear but the greyish color of worn places hints towards paler wood (pear would go more towards dark brown)
    This veneer was then laminated onto substrate that consisted at least from two more veneers the one below the black was with grain going across and somewhat thicker. They actually built up thin plywood. I guess several of these were stacked using pins into a block and shape cut out with bandsaw or pin router. I don't know whether they did binding off mandolin like on fingerboards or glued the headstock overlay to neck first.
    Thin layer of black paint (tinted shellac?) was certainly added, quite opaque one as sometimes they missed to scrape parts of pearl inlays altogether.
    Adrian

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: F4 Headstock veneers - ebony?

    Adrian, some old Gibsons have the plywood overlays painted black and some have a single veneer dyed black. The plywood ones I've worked on have been from the 30s while the single veneer ones are earlier. The plywood ones I've encountered were not dyed, just painted. I've replicated both types over the years. BTW, shellac with powdered lamp black mixed in looks nearly identical to the original black 'paint' used by Gibson, and may be what they used. It is also a 'dead ringer' for the black paint found on very old Martin guitar necks; the maple ones with "ice cream cone" heels.

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    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: F4 Headstock veneers - ebony?

    I don't see them very often here in EU. The few I had chance to look closely and retuch finish matched the "plywood" kind, also Loar CT shows the layers.
    Here is one from late teens (pre-trussrod) that shows the three layers clearly on break. The upper veneer is thoroughly black with thin glaze of black on top the layer below goes across and is twice as thick approximately and of the lowest layer you can see chipped remnants on the broken surface on the left side.
    Here are some pics. (found them on internet) this one can actually be pear with the brown shade of exposed top layer rathere than dark greyish. But the black spines along neck on F-4s looke more like maple.
    Gibson changed many specs at random times so I don't expect they were all made the same.
    BTW, that cracle pattern on surface is typical on old plywood and is likely caused by the cross grain layer underneath and the veneer being peeled from log (the machine compresses the surface of wood so it slices clearly but later it can show).
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Adrian

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: F4 Headstock veneers - ebony?

    The crackle pattern on surface is typical of rotary cut plywood. Sliced veneers are much less prone to such "knife checks" displaying from years of wood movement.
    Here is one example of the single black veneer.
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    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: F4 Headstock veneers - ebony?

    Yes rotary cut veneer is what I meant by "peeled" (that is direct translation of our term for that kind of veneer) I didn't know the english word for that.
    I completely forgot existence of the unbound models. I was talking about the bound headstocks where the overlays have aprox. 3/32" thickness. When someone talks about headstock veneer I thnk about the bound overlays. The simpler models had just one plain thin veneer, saved bunch of time and money.
    Adrian

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: F4 Headstock veneers - ebony?

    Somewhere, I have pictures of a bound F4 peghead with the single veneer overlay but I haven't found them. They did that too. If I can find the pics easily I'll post a couple (probably still on an SD card and haven't made it to the picture files).

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: F4 Headstock veneers - ebony?

    Let's try these.
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    The scroll had broken off and someone tried to "streamline" the shape. If you look closely at the first pic where I used the spindle sander to remove the binding and finish to prepare for gluing a replica scroll you can see the single black veneer. The second pic shows my "ebonized" maple veneer (steel wool in vinegar) on the replica scroll before binding and painting black.

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    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: F4 Headstock veneers - ebony?

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    The scroll had broken off and someone tried to "streamline" the shape. If you look closely at the first pic where I used the spindle sander to remove the binding and finish to prepare for gluing a replica scroll you can see the single black veneer. The second pic shows my "ebonized" maple veneer (steel wool in vinegar) on the replica scroll before binding and painting black.
    Do you know what year it was? Perhaps Gibson changed some things in early teens.
    Did you ebonize full thick maple veneer or just thin and laminated onto a substrate? I haven't done that as I have load of black venner, but it is somewhat porous and softer so I would like ti produce my own out of large sheets of maple and birch veneer I have.
    Adrian

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: F4 Headstock veneers - ebony?

    I don't remember what year the instrument was made. I don't think I recorded the numbers.
    The veneer is approximately .020" sliced maple soaked in vinegar and steel wool. The color is through the veneer. The veneer is glued directly to the mahogany replacement scroll and scarfed into the old veneer. It finished looking like this:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Registered User jim simpson's Avatar
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    Default Re: F4 Headstock veneers - ebony?

    Sunburst, beautiful repair!
    Old Hometown, Cabin Fever String Band

  20. #15
    Mandolingerer Bazz Jass's Avatar
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    Default Re: F4 Headstock veneers - ebony?

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    I don't remember what year the instrument was made. I don't think I recorded the numbers.
    The veneer is approximately .020" sliced maple soaked in vinegar and steel wool. The color is through the veneer. The veneer is glued directly to the mahogany replacement scroll and scarfed into the old veneer. It finished looking like this:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Wow! Couldn't ask for better then that

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