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Thread: Struggling with Eastman V-neck

  1. #1
    Registered User Bren's Avatar
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    Default Struggling with Eastman V-neck

    I got a very nice Eastman 815v in December, my first F-style mandolin.

    Due to travel and other COVID restrictions in the UK it was a remote purchase.

    Also my first V-neck. My other mandolins have been D-neck.
    The one I've played the longest was custom-made and has a very shallow D profile and wide fretboard which suits my physiology. (short fat fingers on medium hands)

    I also have some ongoing back pain, mild arthritis and some arm nerve pain , possibly from cervical disc. Yes, I'm an old crock :-(

    So, 3 or 4 months after purchase of the Eastman, I find I'm getting some pain in my left hand that might be related to the V-neck and is putting me off playing it. This wasn't apparent when I first got this mando but it's developed lately.

    I find it hard to maintain a relaxed left hand position like I do on my D-necks.

    My thumb slips off the point of the V toward the fretboard, and then the webbing between thumb and forefinger touches and drags on the varnish (the v in 815v, I understand) finish when I move up and down the fretboard.

    When I try to maintain a light touch on the vertex of the V I get pain in the base joint of my thumb.

    I'd be interested in hearing from anyone else who's had similar issues with V-necks.

    Is the Eastman V angle extreme , or typical of V-necks?

    Is there a make that's known for a flatter D-neck that would be more comfortable?

    It may be some time before I could go anywhere to try instruments in person.
    Bren

  2. #2

    Default Re: Struggling with Eastman V-neck

    Hi Bren,

    Hard to tell for sure if it's the neck shape, but you're not the only one who isn't comfortable with the V shape. As s luthier, I have softened the V on an F-5 style instrument for a client (and refinished the neck). He also had a Collings that he had someone else soften the V on and speed neck it. Softening the V and speed necking the finish is not a huge job if you like everything else about the instrument. It may or may not make it harder to resell if you decide not to keep it.

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    Default Re: Struggling with Eastman V-neck

    If the mandolin is uncomfortable to your hands, the choices are pretty clear. Either sell the instrument or take a chance that just softening the V will be enough to make it comfortable. Eastman necks are pretty small, and I think that the truss rod is buried pretty deeply on at least some of them, so a major re-carve is probably not a good idea.

    If the instrument is in new condition, you re-work the neck, and it is still uncomfortable, its resale value will be lower than an un-altered lightly used instrument. If you bought it used and it has significant wear, a re-worked neck will have less impact on its resale value.

    I have found that some V necks are very uncomfortable to me, while others are not. Everybody's hands are different, and what might fit one player might not fit another.
    Last edited by rcc56; May-09-2021 at 6:48pm.

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    Default Re: Struggling with Eastman V-neck

    Quote Originally Posted by Bren View Post
    I got a very nice Eastman 815v in December, my first F-style mandolin.

    Due to travel and other COVID restrictions in the UK it was a remote purchase.

    Also my first V-neck. My other mandolins have been D-neck.
    The one I've played the longest was custom-made and has a very shallow D profile and wide fretboard which suits my physiology. (short fat fingers on medium hands)

    I also have some ongoing back pain, mild arthritis and some arm nerve pain , possibly from cervical disc. Yes, I'm an old crock :-(

    So, 3 or 4 months after purchase of the Eastman, I find I'm getting some pain in my left hand that might be related to the V-neck and is putting me off playing it. This wasn't apparent when I first got this mando but it's developed lately.

    I find it hard to maintain a relaxed left hand position like I do on my D-necks.

    My thumb slips off the point of the V toward the fretboard, and then the webbing between thumb and forefinger touches and drags on the varnish (the v in 815v, I understand) finish when I move up and down the fretboard.

    When I try to maintain a light touch on the vertex of the V I get pain in the base joint of my thumb.

    I'd be interested in hearing from anyone else who's had similar issues with V-necks.

    Is the Eastman V angle extreme , or typical of V-necks?

    Is there a make that's known for a flatter D-neck that would be more comfortable?

    It may be some time before I could go anywhere to try instruments in person.
    Not feeling it where you are, but my Eastman 515v gets me right on the side of this knuckle, and causes discomfort after extended playing. Like you I'm used to wider flatter necks, ukulele etc.

    I'm sure it's bad technique on my part!!!

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    Default Re: Struggling with Eastman V-neck

    My Eastman is new, and gets me at both of those places. I’m hoping I get better used to it, and these issues go away…

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    Default Re: Struggling with Eastman V-neck

    I have an Eastman 305 and a UK made small travel mandolin. I'd say the Eastman neck is probably a soft V already, because the other one I have has an acute ridge right the way down the back of the neck. Does holding the neck further into the V of your thumb and hand help (ie sticking your thumb out further without closing the gap behind the neck completely)?

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    Default Re: Struggling with Eastman V-neck

    I have both V and C necks and like them both. You should not be putting your thumb on the point of the V, it's not a guitar. Thumb should be placed on the G side flat of the V. No need to grip hard but placement is everything. I think you will find it much more comfortable to play that way. Good luck.
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    Default Re: Struggling with Eastman V-neck

    Thanks for your contributions all.

    I normally would rest my thumb "on the G side flat of the V", as pops1 suggests.

    However, the balance of this instrument makes the neck swing in towards my body , which means G side flat of the V immediately slides inward along the inside of my thumb until it hits the webbing - called the "thenar webspace" , I just discovered - unless I rest my thumb right on the point of the V, which leads to pain.

    I've tried adjusting my strap, and from body scroll to tuning head and even a single point suspension on the scroll, as in "Dawg leash".
    the first two changes didn't make any difference - the single point might have possibilities if I shorten my strap to the right length for optimum height.
    It's also slightly less painful on my hand if I play standing, but worse on my neck.
    maxr:
    Does holding the neck further into the V of your thumb and hand help (ie sticking your thumb out further without closing the gap behind the neck completely)?
    The relative shortness of my thumb means I don't really have much of a gap.

    Thumb is also very flexible at bending backwards at the middle joint just when I'd prefer it stayed rigid.

    This is not a problem on my D- (or C- if you like) necked mandos where the angle at point of thumb contact is shallow enough to prevent the neck sliding inward toward my thenar webspace.

    Rob Roy:
    As s luthier, I have softened the V on an F-5 style instrument for a client (and refinished the neck)
    I didn't know you could do that Rob Roy. I thought that luthiers would only make necks as thick as they need to be for strength, and no more.

    And I note rcc56's point about the risk of Eastman necks being thinner and closer to the truss rod at the back, so I'm wary of doing anything like that.
    Bren

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    Default Re: Struggling with Eastman V-neck

    Are you ok when you play your old mandolin (a Vanden, I think) ?
    David A. Gordon

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    Default Re: Struggling with Eastman V-neck

    I love the Eastman V shape, but I use my thumb over the neck and not on the back, guitar necks are often uncomfortable for me due to not being V shaped enough. You can always reshape a V to a D but depending on your expertise, experience or money, this may or may not be possible. That would be ideal if you like everything else about the instrument.
    If it really is that much of an issue, you could trade or sell the instrument for a similar quality instrument with a more comfortable neck for your hands. It's an extreme solution either way but if I don't like a neck these are the options I would consider myself.
    I know it's not much but I hope that helps,
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    Default Re: Struggling with Eastman V-neck

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagger Gordon View Post
    Are you ok when you play your old mandolin (a Vanden, I think) ?

    It's made by Marshall Dow in Aberdeen .
    I still get some nerve pain with it but just the same as I do generally, not especially from the mandolin.
    Bren

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    Default Re: Struggling with Eastman V-neck

    Quote Originally Posted by Rossjcw View Post
    I love the Eastman V shape, but I use my thumb over the neck and not on the back
    -Ross
    That's pretty much where I end up and what results in thumb joint pain.

    It's a really nice instrument, so I'm going to persevere for a while yet, and although I bought it remotely, I had tried a similar one in a music shop in Edinburgh pre-COVID and got on very well with it. In the relatively short time one can play an instrument in a music shop.

    It's maybe just a case of one's physical limitations becoming more apparent with age that weren't such an impediment when younger.

    My question then is: are there any non-custom brands that have a more D-shaped neck?
    Is that what people mean by a "speed neck"?
    Bren

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    Default Re: Struggling with Eastman V-neck

    Quote Originally Posted by Bren View Post
    It's made by Marshall Dow in Aberdeen .
    I still get some nerve pain with it but just the same as I do generally, not especially from the mandolin.
    Ah yes. Janice Reavell (who I should think you know) got one from him in November. Amazingly I bumped into her in Celtic Chords in Stonehaven where she had bought it. Nice.
    David A. Gordon

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    Default Re: Struggling with Eastman V-neck

    Quote Originally Posted by Bren View Post
    Is that what people mean by a "speed neck"?
    No, a speed neck simply has the finish removed, or not put on in the first place. It is sealed or oiled, but not finished so your hand doesn't stick.
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    Default Re: Struggling with Eastman V-neck

    Thanks pops1. That makes sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagger Gordon View Post
    Ah yes. Janice Reavell (who I should think you know) got one from him in November. Amazingly I bumped into her in Celtic Chords in Stonehaven where she had bought it. Nice.
    I don't know her that well, but I realised know her as Janice Clark.

    Marshall has had a few for sale in Celtic Chords in recent years. (Before that he mostly just made on commission).

    They are lighter-looking and brighter-sounding than mine, of which back, sides and neck were made from reclaimed mahogany in 1998 and has developed a nice darker sound.

    Now that we can travel about, I should make a trip down to Celtic Chords and try some of Pete's mandolins.

    Going back to what pops1 and others said , this picture of the necks of the Dow (foreground) and Eastman hopefully illustrate a bit of what I mean.

    You can see a shiny bit on the Dow neck just below the strap, where my thumb normally rests. It just doesn't do that on the Eastman, but slips until neck rests on my web, where it then drags.

    Bren

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    Default Re: Struggling with Eastman V-neck

    I was playing with friends today for another friend who was paralyzed a few years ago. We play for him every Tuesday and are starting to come back now that we are all vaccinated, especially him. Anyway I was playing my V neck mandolin and looked at my hand thinking of this thread. I noticed I was holding the mandolin in the crook of my thumb and not actually using my thumb at all. I may change that for a solo, but for melody old time I don't need to use the thumb. May be something to try.
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    Default Re: Struggling with Eastman V-neck

    Like you, my thumb consistently got bone sore with the V-neck profile on my F-9. At the same time I bought a very inexpensive MK F-style which had a generous D (or C, compared to a V) profile, and which my thumb liked very much... While I considered selling the F-9 at that time and re-investing in another mandolin with a C profile neck, I really like the F-9 and didn't want another mandolin.

    Down about two years later, I needed to have my F-9 re-fretted... In addition to the Gold Evo re-fret, I requested that the luthier at the same time re-profile the neck to a C profile and speed-neck the neck. He did all this work very nicely, and the thumb pain stopped...

    Fast forward to early last year when I began having RA symptoms in my hands... Along with other fingers, my left thumb developed a trigger finger and joint issues that now prevent my thumb's distal phalanx from bending back to cradle the back of the neck. I re-learned how to play with my left hand, such that now the left side of my comparatively straight thumb cradles the G-side of the mandolin neck...

    This newer thumb posture works and I'm playing more than ever now, so I have no complaints. But my observation is that perhaps this is the reason for having a V-neck profile -- to allow the player to cradle the side of the neck with the side of the thumb instead of bending back the thumb's distal phalanx to cradle the back of the neck. This works for both a V and a C profile, so it doesn't represent any problems for the other instruments that I play.

    Just a thought then: Would you also benefit from using the side of your thumb on the side of the neck, instead of bending it back to cradle the back of the neck? (There also might possibly be an injury-avoidance consideration involved, although I can't definitively say it would have prevented my RA issues.)

    Anyway, if not, then the choice would be to either get a new mandolin, or have the back of the neck re-profiled to suit your needs. I can definitely vouch for the effectiveness of having the neck re-profile and speed-neck work done, provided it is done by a competent mandolin luthier.
    -- Don

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    Default Re: Struggling with Eastman V-neck

    Hard to tell , but they do seem quite different. Does the Dow have a wider neck?
    David A. Gordon

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    Default Re: Struggling with Eastman V-neck

    * The Dow has the lowest, flattest D profile I've ever seen on a mandolin by a long shot. I can see why you'd have a hard time adjusting. Don's post above about the V neck is the most telling. Unlike guitar, mandolin calls for angling your hand more at a 45º angle rather than perpendicular to the neck. The relaxed hand forms a crook running diagonally across the palm, roughly following the crease lines. A "V" neck fills that crook so the palm can be more relaxed, letting the fingers do their thing.

    Try angling your hand differently and see if that is more comfortable. If not, stick with your Dow. The V on your Eastman is not that crisp for a bluegrass mando, many are sharper. It's a bluegrass mandolin and BG players tend to like a neck that fills the palm for support when you have to chop chords all night. You can look around, but I doubt you'll find anything with as much of a D shape as your Dow, unless it's a custom build. Good luck on your search.

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    Default Re: Struggling with Eastman V-neck

    I had a very nice Eastman 615 for a while, but the neck was always a problem for me. I believe it was a 2007 model, and the neck profile felt a bit too narrow, and too sharp (in the V) for my hands. I played that mandolin as a backup/camp fire mandolin for about a year, and wound up selling it because it hurt my hands too bad to play it for long periods of time. Recently though I acquired a used 2018 Eastman 315, and that mandolin feels far better in my hands. Eastman changed their specs a few years ago, and I feel like the new neck profile is FAR more comfortable than the old one. So, I'm not sure how old your instrument is, but that has been my experience. All of the new spec Eastmans I've played (7 or 8) have felt fine to me, and all of the old spec mandolins (I've played 4 and owned 2) feel uncomfortable. All things considered though, I still recommend Eastman mandolins all the time. They are great mandolins for the money!

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  31. #21
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    Default Re: Struggling with Eastman V-neck

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagger Gordon View Post
    Hard to tell , but they do seem quite different. Does the Dow have a wider neck?
    Yes, quite a bit. It's 1-5/16" at the nut, whereas Eastman is more like 1-3/32".
    But custom-made for me - I don't think Marshall's shop mandolins are that wide.

    Thanks all for the considered replies with information and suggestions.

    Also interesting to see I'm not the only one who's getting this kind of pain.

    I took a look at my thumb positions on this split screen video which I made a few months ago.

    https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...Teardrop-Waltz

    The Eastman on the left and the Dow on the right.

    I can see I'm mostly resting the V-neck in the crook of my thumb. I do remember it dragging on my thenary webspace (love that term!) and don't recall any major discomfort at the time, but it's pretty simple melody with plenty of rest intervals.
    Bren

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    Default Re: Struggling with Eastman V-neck

    Quote Originally Posted by Bren View Post
    My thumb slips off the point of the V toward the fretboard, and then the webbing between thumb and forefinger touches and drags on the varnish (the v in 815v, I understand) finish when I move up and down the fretboard.


    Generally, the thumb shouldn't be on the point of the V at the center back of the neck.
    In fact the center of the back of the neck usually isn't touching any part of your hand, other than occasionally very lightly in the web.
    The thumb should be toward the binding at the upper side of the neck, at a slight angle toward the headstock. It occasionally peaks over the fretboard, such as during chop chords.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  33. #23
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    Default Re: Struggling with Eastman V-neck

    An update:
    I've gradually gotten more comfortable with the Eastman and have adjusted my grip and stance over time to allow for the neck.
    Not consciously, but pain will force the issue anyway.

    Marshall gave the neck a bit of a rub with fine paper and that has helped a lot too by taking the dragginess out of the finish.

    I still use my Dow for playing in pub sessions because its volume and tone are ideal for that, but at home, the Eastman is now the one I reach for.
    Its tone has developed a lot too.

    I take the Dow down from the wall a few hours before going out to a session just to reacquaint myself with its width.
    Bren

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