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Thread: Is It Possible to Fake It?

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    Registered User Sherry Cadenhead's Avatar
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    Default Is It Possible to Fake It?

    So, I'm working in Tommy Norris' Theory and Improvisation for the Mandolinist, Volume I. I'm only on page 7, and am impatient, as usual. I "get" improvising using the chord tones, but what if you're playing with others and you don't always know the chord changes? Is it possible to "fake" a solo?

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    Default Re: Is It Possible to Fake It?

    Absolutely. Although I wouldn't call it "faking". There are sooo many ways to think about soloing, and the chord tone approach is only one. You can also just think in terms of scales, especially a pentatonic scale, which gives you a five note palette to choose from. To me, the important thing is to jump in and give it a try. You're going to crash and burn, and that's okay. We all started there. We all survived. I would suggest finding an easy-tempo recording of a three chord song in G (or whatever key you like), and trying to play some simple melodic riffs to it, just using the notes of the pentatonic scale. Just getting accustomed to making melodic noises in a timely fashion is a big accomplishment.
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    Default Re: Is It Possible to Fake It?

    Itís hard to play a solo without knowing at least a bit about either the melody or the chords. However staying in the pentantonic scale as suggested above is the safest thing if you do find yourself there. After a while you can figure out some of the chords as you play.

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    Default Re: Is It Possible to Fake It?

    I agree with onassis "fake" isn't really a good description, if you were trying to play some other players solo note for note and not quite getting it, that might be faking, other wise, improvisation is up to the improvisor. Staying in the key and or playing through the changes and staying close to the melody help immensely, but to some may seem contrite. Playing a lot of notes that don't follow the melody may be too atonal for others. Repetition of a phrase my seem excessive to some while to others it builds tension. Sometimes a lot of notes help carry you through, other times ( even on the same tune) sparsity may be more interesting. To quote Duke Ellington, "if it sounds good, it is good".
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    Default Re: Is It Possible to Fake It?

    Do you play guitar? I usually watch the guitar player to see the chord progression if I don't know the tune.
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    Default Re: Is It Possible to Fake It?

    Jazz musicians "fake it" all the time. That's one reason that the collections of lead sheets with chords are called "fake books," giving players just enough information to "fake" their way through a request on stage.

    To me, faking means reading through the melody of something that I don't know and trying to make sense when I improvise on the chord changes. After enough jobs, one can get pretty good at it. When I was a working professional jazz and "dinner and dance" musician, we read an awful lot of lead sheets on the job.

    And if you have a really good ear, sometimes it can help you more than lead sheets. But you will not know how good your ear is until you have several years of experience on your instrument.

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    Registered User Sherry Cadenhead's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is It Possible to Fake It?

    Quote Originally Posted by RobP View Post
    Do you play guitar? I usually watch the guitar player to see the chord progression if I don't know the tune.
    Rob, I don't play guitar, but am learning what the chords look like. That's not to say my brain could process a chord, the notes in the chord and the placement of my fingers simultaneously. I know, I know. That comes with practice.

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    Default Re: Is It Possible to Fake It?

    Try coming at it from the other direction, in a sort of inductive vs deductive way. Instead of thinking about what notes you "should" play, eg what note-choices are dictated by the chord progressions, forget all that bs and just try singing your solo first. Make something up that fits (my seven year old's got this down, sounds more like Clapton than Clapton does). When you're comfortable singing your solo (even if you're changing it every time you run through it), take the opening bar or two, sing a phrase, stop the music, sing the phrase by yourself, and then figure out on the mandolin what you just sang.

    This is the essence of improvisation: spontaneous from-the-heart on-the-fly composing.

    Everyone's suggestion of going pentatonic is not to be ignored, however ó chances are, what you'll come up with, what you'll sing will be pentatonic anyways, so it's important to know where on the instrument those notes are.

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    Default Re: Is It Possible to Fake It?

    Of course you can fake it, sometimes more successfully than other times. That’s the nature of improvisation. The opposite would be playing a precomposed break. What fun is that?

    Chord tones and pentatonic scales are big tools, use them frequently. And listen hard to what’s going on around you in the jam. Backing tracks in practice can be a great help.
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    Default Re: Is It Possible to Fake It?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bevan View Post
    Try coming at it from the other direction, in a sort of inductive vs deductive way. Instead of thinking about what notes you "should" play, eg what note-choices are dictated by the chord progressions, forget all that bs and just try singing your solo first. Make something up that fits (my seven year old's got this down, sounds more like Clapton than Clapton does). When you're comfortable singing your solo (even if you're changing it every time you run through it), take the opening bar or two, sing a phrase, stop the music, sing the phrase by yourself, and then figure out on the mandolin what you just sang.

    This is the essence of improvisation: spontaneous from-the-heart on-the-fly composing.
    Hmmm. Interesting approach. My accountant's brain wants to analyze.

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    Default Re: Is It Possible to Fake It?

    sing the phrase by yourself, and then figure out on the mandolin what you just sang.
    That's how Johnny Gimble taught himself to improvise, I read in an interview.

    I have "faked it" for years just by knowing/guessing the melody and adding bits here and there.
    Feels like I've been learning more theory in the last year than the previous forty put together.
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    Default Re: Is It Possible to Fake It?

    Lots of great tips for improvising (use of chord tones, pentatonic scale, singing, etc) but what seems to work for me is the pentatonic scale. I ignore the chord tones and chord changes. I keep it simple by focusing only on the notes in the pentatonic scale of the key of the song. I am by no means an advanced player but amazingly, it seems to work for me very well. But it does help to hear someone sing the verse once. Any one else use this technique?

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    Default Re: Is It Possible to Fake It?

    Studying music theory, scales, modes etc etc will not make you a good player but actually can be a constraint in a way...there are many more music theory buffs that can talk a good game, explain every movement, the names of each chord, scale and movement but when it comes to playing with soul, feeling and emotion simply don't have a clue. No amount of music theory or studying music will make you a musician. Most of the truly great players had no concept in understanding the theory behind what they were playing and yes theory was in there whether they knew it or not but they played what they heard and felt.

    I read this "'Errol Garner, that produced millions of LP's, and gave 'Concerts, all around the World. His 'Group', had difficulty following his playing, because 'Errol, did not know enough about 'Music theory, to be able to explain to others, what key, and what changes he was making. Years later, he decided to try and learn. A Piano Instructor, refused to teach, telling him, If he learned 'Theory, he would never be able to play again, because his 'Conscious Mind, would be trying to figure out what to do next, and his mind would boggle.

    Theory is in everything musical but often times according to a persons musical aspirations and level of playing it can be like putting the cart in front of the horse and you'll wind up going nowhere as your mind is bogged down and some brains aren't wired to understand complicated theory especially beginner and casual players. Some can understand complicated theory and still be extremely lacking in musical talent. Anything you practice, learn and hear has theory in it, as you progress you'll start to pick up theory related ideas and began to understand how they relate to musical structures.

    For the beginner or simply a person wanting to play music at home or with a group of amatuer players your ear training will carry you a great distance connecting and learning musical theory whether you know it or not. A child learns to talk without ever learning the alphabet, ear training helps you to learn rhythms, pitches, melodies, chords the basic elements of music theory that is not even recognized or called theory at that point. Crawl, walk, run or run, walk, crawl. Learn by listening as a child does by hearing sounds and words they begin to speak. The ability to hear and play something musical begins in your head and is the foundation of being a musician. So making my long story longer I'd be much more concerned with ear training opposed to books on theory and improvisation, just my cart before horse thought.
    Last edited by CBFrench; May-11-2021 at 10:26am.

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    Default Re: Is It Possible to Fake It?

    I understand where you are coming from CBFrench, but I am not really on the same page. You can make sound without making music, but you can't make music without making sound.
    Sound in its most basic definition is the vibration of air. All of the sounds produced in music can be mapped to physical processes and to air vibration. Soul and feeling are expressed though volume dynamics, sustain, attack, timing, omission, the list goes on and on.
    I agree I have seen some highly trained musicians perform dogmatically from the page and it sounds very emotionless and static, but I have also heard highly trained musicians perform dogmatically from the page and it sounds awesome, so relativity has a lot to do with it.
    That being said I would not say music theory training is required to make good music, but I would never consider it an inhibitor to making good music. Improvisation is implied as being very personal and "free", but in established genre's like Folk, BG ,jazz, rock whatever there are expectations of how the music is supposed to sound, so learning some of those basics can go a long way for live performance with an audience.
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    Default Re: Is It Possible to Fake It?

    There is a way that "faking" an improvisation has a real concrete, and in my mind negative, meaning.

    That is folks who work out an improvisation, note by note, beforehand, and then, during the jam, pass it off as spontaneously composed.

    To my mind a solo should be a spontaneous response to the energy of the tune and its playing at that moment. If one wants to work out and carefully compose an alternate melody over the same chords, that is great. It is an excellent exercise. The negative part is one when one allows us to believe the composition is a spontaneous improvisation.

    Another kind of faking I don't care for but I readily forgive, is someone who has practiced creating improvisations for different keys, and has a pre-practiced polished repertory of improvs in popular keys. So that if a tune is in, say G, they can just pull out their improv in G, fully practiced and polished. So certainly they are able to improvise in all the keys, which is good, but the problem for me is that the solo break played has nothing to do with the tune into which it is inserted. You can hear it's irrelevance. It is an interruption in the narrative of the song. It's like: "I interrupt this piece of music to present "me". I will return you to the lovely tune we were playing as soon as I am finished showing you how good I am."
    Last edited by JeffD; May-11-2021 at 11:51am.
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    Default Re: Is It Possible to Fake It?

    Quote Originally Posted by CBFrench View Post
    Studying music theory, scales, modes etc etc will not make you a good player but actually can be a constraint in a way...there are many more music theory buffs that can talk a good game, explain every movement, the names of each chord, scale and movement but when it comes to playing with soul, feeling and emotion simply don't have a clue. No amount of music theory or studying music will make you a musician. Most of the truly great players had no concept in understanding the theory behind what they were playing and yes theory was in there whether they knew it or not but they played what they heard and felt.
    I totally disagree with this. With all due respect.

    A bunch of things. First of all:

    In classical music, composed music, and even a pre-existing song or tune, I don't want to hear what the player feels. I want to hear what the composer felt. I want the emotions and drama of the tune expressed. In genres where you are not improvising, I think it is a mistake to express yourself. Express what is in the music - play expressively - absolutely.

    A musician can bring a lot of their experienced emotions and their unique reactions to the slings and arrows of their own outrageous fortune, as elements and vocabulary to help play expressively and bring out what is in the music. But my goodness, nobody wants to hear me express myself. People don't listen to me play because they are interested in me, or my life or experiences. Music is a performance, not a confessional.

    Secondly:

    Learning music theory, scales, modes, etc., will absolutely help one become a better player and a better improviser. If one is playing flat and constrained, lacking feeling and emotion, "soul" if you want, it is not at all because of the learning of music theory. It is because one hasn't learned to play expressively and musically. They are two different things to learn, and one does not teach the other. They are not mutually exclusive. What ever you haven't learned you don't know, and learning something else does not provide it. I mean, ya gotta learn them both.

    Learning how a car works is a good thing. Learning to drive is also a good thing. Someone who is a bad driver cannot blame it on having learned how the car works. And that there are many good drivers that never learned how a car works, or that you don't have to know how completely how a car works in order to drive it - these are not arguments for avoiding learning how a car works.

    Kind of a clunky analogy, I admit.
    Last edited by JeffD; May-11-2021 at 11:47am.
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    Default Re: Is It Possible to Fake It?

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    I totally disagree with this. With all due respect.

    A bunch of things. First of all:

    In classical music, composed music, and even a pre-existing song or tune, I don't want to hear what the player feels. I want to hear what the composer felt. I want the emotions and drama of the tune expressed. In genres where you are not improvising, I think it is a mistake to express yourself. Express what is in the music - play expressively - absolutely.

    A musician can bring a lot of their experienced emotions and their unique reactions to the slings and arrows of their own outrageous fortune, as elements and vocabulary to help play expressively and bring out what is in the music. But my goodness, nobody wants to hear me express myself. People don't listen to me play because they are interested in me, or my life or experiences. Music is a performance, not a confessional.

    Secondly:

    Learning music theory, scales, modes, etc., will absolutely help one become a better player and a better improviser. If one is playing flat and constrained, lacking feeling and emotion, "soul" if you want, it is not at all because of the learning of music theory. It is because one hasn't learned to play expressively and musically. They are two different things to learn, and one does not teach the other. They are not mutually exclusive. What ever you haven't learned you don't know, and learning something else does not provide it. I mean, ya gotta learn them both.

    Learning how a car works is a good thing. Learning to drive is also a good thing. Someone who is a bad driver cannot blame it on having learned how the car works. And that there are many good drivers that never learned how a car works, or that you don't have to know how completely how a car works in order to drive it - these are not arguments for avoiding learning how a car works.

    Kind of a clunky analogy, I admit.
    Perhaps the symphonic/orchestral tradition deems it so. But that's a small slice of music, if we consider all of humanity (as well the arguments put forth for the rest of the natural world also partaking musically such as elucidated in growing bodies of research and human evolution).

    Abstracting from and codifying human-ness in the process of music-making is an interesting endeavor, yet it is hardly the only one, and in fact omits much of our musical world. Reminds me of the ecumenical approach to music of eons past.

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    Default Re: Is It Possible to Fake It?

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    I totally disagree with this. With all due respect.

    A bunch of things. First of all:

    In classical music, composed music, and even a pre-existing song or tune, I don't want to hear what the player feels. I want to hear what the composer felt. I want the emotions and drama of the tune expressed. In genres where you are not improvising, I think it is a mistake to express yourself. Express what is in the music - play expressively - absolutely.
    With all due respect I totally disagree with all of this...

    In this case and most cases here we aren't talking about advanced professional players who are playing classical music, composed music, learning notation, reading music and or playing professionally or in an orchestra...gee whiz this was a semi beginner question and I never dissed learning theory, I simply said there is a place and time but not as a beginner and especially one who is simply a casual home player and as some like to say going to a Jam, altho I've never ever heard any musician friends of mine ever use the word jam in my 50 years of playing and no music is not some professional Performance. It's simply enjoying playing and music itself, couch players and porch pickers aren't trying to do some kind of orchestral Performance. Evidently we come from different sides of the track.

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    Default Re: Is It Possible to Fake It?

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    Music is a performance, not a confessional.
    At the risk of distilling it down to oversimplifications, let's look at 'music' from two opposite poles: the didactic approach vs the jazz approach.

    As in many realms of life, these represent two disparate epistemological views: The former to convey 'what is/was written' and the latter to express a contemporaneous, transitive and personal experience. To say that "music is (one or the other) - performance or confessional" - is like saying "a car is red."

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    Default Re: Is It Possible to Fake It?

    It's possible to understand the harmony for a song intuitively without having much of a clue what the chord names & colors are (that is, how it's written.) As someone who's self-taught and plays by ear, this can happen to me. Sometimes it even works to play a lead. The simplest trick there, assuming your mind's ear understands the harmony, is to know the intervals well on the instrument. So, noodling along, I can know that for this chord I can play a minor third step from this note I'm playing, but when the chord changes, it'll be a major third step, I'll go to that minor and slide up a fret as the chord changes. But ask me what notes I'm actually playing (either as letter notes or as numbers in a chord scale) and I'll look at you like the village idiot. (Yet, stop the clock at any chord, and in a moment I can play that chord, know what the chord is, and find that note/interval I was playing, and THEN tell you. Only, they never stop the clock during the jam!)

    I've played keyboards and guitars avidly for over 50 years now, so I pretty much know the instruments, the chords, voicings, etc. I can play blues leads in my sleep (in a few keys, not so much in the odd keys.) But when I try to learn jazz I feel stupid. When I study the theory everything falls into two categories: names for stuff I already intuitively knew, and completely incomprehensible stuff. The funny thing is, over the decades, the line between them advances.

    Last year I started going to a beginner's jazz jam. After the first session I found I had to go home and woodshed, a lot. Really learn the few core tunes. Learn to play chords from the fake book, in time. That was struggle enough. Then to start to craft some approaches to leads for the popular tunes. Do it over and over. And then I was ready to be a beginner.

    I think the biggest difference between me and the real "jazz cats" is that they had to have spent hours and hours every day learning this stuff and getting it "into their fingers" for years and years. Either that or some inbuilt genius that I'll never understand. But seriously, I think it takes a lot of study and practice just to get to first base.

    I think the biggest tip I can offer is to find a way to enjoy the trip. But take that with a grain of salt, because I've hardly gotten started on mine.

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    Default Re: Is It Possible to Fake It?

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffLearman View Post
    I think the biggest tip I can offer is to find a way to enjoy the trip. But take that with a grain of salt, because I've hardly gotten started on mine.
    Here's my categorical statement on 'music' - it gives back what you put into it. This is why it typically grows - roughly commensurate with the mind - and we often say: the more we learn, the less we know..

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    Default Re: Is It Possible to Fake It?

    Quote Originally Posted by CBFrench View Post
    With all due respect I totally disagree with all of this...

    In this case and most cases here we aren't talking about advanced professional players who are playing classical music, composed music, learning notation, reading music and or playing professionally or in an orchestra...gee whiz this was a semi beginner question and I never dissed learning theory, I simply said there is a place and time but not as a beginner and especially one who is simply a casual home player and as some like to say going to a Jam, altho I've never ever heard any musician friends of mine ever use the word jam in my 50 years of playing and no music is not some professional Performance. It's simply enjoying playing and music itself, couch players and porch pickers aren't trying to do some kind of orchestral Performance. Evidently we come from different sides of the track.
    Hmmmm. Well hmmmm. You got me thinking.

    Don't you think all music is a performance? I mean unless you are playing entirely alone, or if you are composing your own song/tune.

    But with friends on a porch even. I mean I play a lot of different kinds of music, and not any of it is about a kid that grows up in New Jersey, graduates high school, goes to college, gets a job, buys a car, and buys a house. I have never done many (most) of the things that song are written about. I don't feature at all in any of the music I play. So none of what I express when I play has anything to do with my life in any real way. And if it did, who would listen. My life is not that extraordinary. Even with friends at a party, the musician is performing. Except for playing entirely alone, which is the "simply enjoying playing" part, and composing, but everything else, when is playing music not a performance?

    To argue with my self, I certainly do not like performing. And when at a jam, it is absolutely not a performance for an audience. We play for and with each other. I often say I would rather play with friends than for friends. I hardly ever play out, and enjoy the rehearsals much more than the gig.

    That said, on a personal basis, when ever I am behind the mandolin, in the presence of others, I am performing in a sense. It seem inescapable. For example: I only play the tunes I know. I don't share the mountain of music that is beyond me. If you hear me play ten tunes, you are in a sense fooled into thinking I can play the mandolin. And I don't correct you. I don't tell you those are the ten tunes I know. I don't tell you how hard it was to learn those ten tunes. How hard it is to make it "look easy".

    Its confusing. And even playing alone, what goes on in my head. How am I able to both play the tune and listen to my playing? Am I performing to myself? I mean, if I just wanted to hear some mandolin playing the CD player is right there, Spotify is just waiting.

    As for place and time, I have to think about that. But I do not think there is a single player whose playing has been inhibited by learning music theory. Learning music theory is never a constraint. I mean, yea, I agree it would get in the way of a newbies enthusiasm if they were bopped over the head with music theory as a first thing. Or if one is intimidated into not playing music by a poor instructor who emphasizes the wrong things and doesn't meet the student where the student is. So maybe that is what you are getting at regarding timing. Or in another way, that we only have so much time on earth, and so we need to prioritize and concentrate on things, and necessarily turn away from others.

    You got me thinking.
    Last edited by JeffD; May-11-2021 at 1:29pm.
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  39. #23

    Default Re: Is It Possible to Fake It?

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post

    Don't you think all music is a performance?
    All of life is a performance. You might say that we're all faking it, all the time.. (in fact, this is a problem of art and often the very barrier that improvisors seek to overcome - to play what is authentic, rather than prescribed).

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    Registered User Ky Slim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is It Possible to Fake It?

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    But my goodness, nobody wants to hear me express myself. People don't listen to me play because they are interested in me, or my life or experiences.
    Well, I would at least fake being interested...

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    Default Re: Is It Possible to Fake It?

    There you go. And I thank you for it.
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