Please define “intermediate”

[John Soper]

I've played mandolin off & on for 50 years, seriously for 20 (nudging various guitars out as my primary instrument). I've played semi-pro for years and still consider myself "intermediate" because the more I play, the more my ears and mind open up to hear the music I want to be able to play.

[Simon DS]

Intermediate is anyone who can play a slow, solid foot stomping rhythm.
-anyone. That includes beginners.

[Bren]

Intermediacy is that vast space between where I started and where I want to go.

[Bob Gnann]

Hi Jill thanks for your post. Back in my youth 18 - 25 years of age I played soccer (football) in Canada for a Scottish social club in a "Sunday League". Lots of very good Europeans on various clubs. At one point I was the only Yank in the league. An experience I'll treasure always. So I can also relate to being an intermediate player at the mandolin. I have had some great experiences playing in a few local Bluegrass bands and then being able to play at some festivals and warm up for some good bands too! Again, an analogy I can appreciate.

[JeffD]

This might be a strong argument for using the term "journeyman". Or maybe it will be of interest.

• Our grading system is divided into three major divisions, “Elementary,” “Intermediate,” and “Advanced,” with seven Grade subdivisions, numbered 1 through 7 (1 is easiest, 7 hardest.) The first six subdivisions are similar to those of the New York State School Music Association (NYSSMA.) We have added a 7th level for highly virtuostic works, works which are clearly a step higher than NYSSMA’s top level, Grade 6. Each of the seven Grades belongs to one of the major divisions, as such:
• Grade 1 & 2 — Elementary
• Grade 3 & 4 — Intermediate
• Grade 5, 6 & 7 — AdvancedThe following criteria serve as guidelines when assigning grade levels to new and existing works in our catalog database. As “guidelines,” they are sometimes overridden due to circumstances beyond the scope of what is listed here. These guidelines are used for all pitched instruments, and as such, it should be recognized that some instruments will be at an advantage and others at a disadvantage in some of the key technical areas (piano has no real range or tessitura issues for instance.) However, we feel we have included enough musical criteria to keep the system balanced across the entire orchestra.
  Please note: Many items in our catalog do not have a numeric Grade. In these cases, the music is graded "Elementary," Intermediate" or "Advanced" without a corresponding number. This is done often with ensemble pieces, where individual parts might be at distinctly different numeric Grade levels. The label therefore describes the Grade of the piece "in general."

Grade 1

Typical first year player

Difficulty: Very easy or “elementary.”
Time: 2/4, 3/4, 4/4.
Key: 2 keys on home side of circle of 5ths, plus maybe C (2-3 total.)
Tonality: Major & minor.
Rhythm: Whole, half, quarter notes.
Range: 5 - 8 notes.
Tessitura: same as range, minus “tricky” notes.
Dynamics: None.
Clef: Home clef only.
Length: Very short.


Grade 2

Typical second year player

Difficulty: Easy or “late elementary.”
Time: Same as Grade 1 - 2/4, 3/4, 4/4.
Key: 2 keys in home area plus C and 1 on “far” side (4 total).
Tonality: Major & minor.
Rhythm: Same as Grade 1, plus add eighths, dotted rhythms.
Range: Octave to 12th, depending on instrument.
Tessitura: Home octave.
Dynamics: p, f, mf.
Clef: Home clef only.
Length: Short.


Grade 3

Average middle school & later elementary player

Difficulty: Medium or “early intermediate.”
Time: Same as Grade 2 plus easy cut time and 6/8.
Key: 3 keys in home area plus C and 2 on “far” side (6 total).
Tonality: Major & minor.
Rhythm: Add simple 16th groupings and 16th flags on dotted eighths.
Range: 12th to octave.
Tessitura: Centers in home 10th.
Dynamics: pp. p, mp, mf, f, ff.
Clef: Home clef only.
Length: Short to medium.


Grade 4

Younger high school & later middle school player.

Difficulty: Intermediate.
Time: Same as 3 but adds 3/8, 9/8, 4/2 and 12/8.
Key: 4 keys in home area plus C and 3 on far side (8 total).
Tonality: Major & minor, some Dorian, Lydian.
Rhythm: Add short simple (diatonic) 16th runs.
Range: 2 octaves.
Tessitura: Middle 12th.
Dynamics: pp thru ff plus fp.
Clef: Home clef only.
Length: Up to medium long, some multi-movement.


Grade 5

High school & early college level player.

Difficulty: Medium-difficult or “late intermediate” / “early advanced.”
Time: Adds 5/4, 7/4, 3/2, etc standard meters. Standard time changes.
Key: 5 keys in home area plus C and 4 on far side (10 total). Standard key changes.
Tonality: Major & minor, Dorian, Lydian, other standard modes.
Rhythm: Add grace notes, 16th note chromatic runs, some 32nds.
Range: 2.5 octaves.
Tessitura: Middle 2 octaves, tending towards home 12th.
Clef: Home clef with brief, simple switches to next most common clef.
Dynamics: ppp thru fff plus sfz, fz, rf.
Length: Up to long, plus multi movement.


Grade 6

Typical college level player.

Difficulty: Difficult or “advanced.”
Time: All times, mixed times (4 + 3/4 etc) and multiple time changes.
Key: All keys, “wrong key” & “no key” notation with dedicated accidentals.
Tonality: All modes, plus atonality.
Rhythm: All rhythms plus basic or short aleatoric sections.
Range: Full professional range as required by standard orchestral rep.
Tessitura: Central 85% of range.
Clef: Any clef as required by standard orchestral rep.
Dynamics: All or any.
Length: Any.


Grade 7

Advanced college & professional level player.

Difficulty: Very difficult or “virtuostic.”
Time: All times & “none.”
Key: Same as 6.
Tonality: Same as 6 plus atonal, quarter-tonal, and alternate systems.
Rhythm: All rhythms, plus extensive aleatoric techniques.
Range: Full professional range with “athletic” hyper-extensions.
Tessitura: Anywhere in the full range.
Clef: Any.
Dynamics: All or any.
Length: Any, but especially applies to very long works.

Ques

[catmandu2]

I don't know whether I should be happy or sad that my preference aligns with whatever 'fascist hierarchy' you posted there Jeff *FTR i get Niles' critique - just having fun..I'm all for throwing off categorical mind.

[Mandobart]

Keith Yoder says he has two kinds of students. There are those that are really good and believe they are not very good and those that think they are great and really, really suck.

This explains that....

[Mark Gunter]

I don't know whether I should be happy or sad that my preference aligns with whatever 'fascist hierarchy' you posted there Jeff *FTR i get Niles' critique - just having fun..I'm all for throwing off categorical mind.

Well, in a subject as vast and varied as music you can't learn everything all at once. If your job is to teach a large body of knowledge and technique to a number of students, you need a concrete plan for setting goals and measuring progress. That course Jeff refers to appears to be comprehensive, but not Niles' cup of tea, necessarily - nor Roger Waters' - I wonder how often I'd go without pudding were I a student there?

[Mark Gunter]

This explains that....

I like the lemon juice trick, makes for an interesting analysis. #lemonface might be a useful hashtag for some social media types I've encountered.

[Mandobart]

Based on my own unscientific experience, a beginner is one who must be first shown (nearly) everything. Some level of supervision/feedback is necessary for them to keep learning. Ability to get through a few songs at reasonable speed with few/inconsequential mistakes and steady rhythm is the beginning of intermediate playing, IMO.

The intermediate (or as I say intermediocre) level covers the broadest ground. It's probably easier to define the onset of advanced status. If you're not able to play along with others (not able to due to lack of skill is not the same as not willing to due to lack of interest/opportunity) you're not intermediate.

To me, an advanced player is able to competently play with others in any setting. They are able to discern the key, rhythm and song structure in a couple of bars, and are able to comp and solo on a song they've never heard before.

A professional player may be at any skill level. If they're able to provide at least half their living expenses by playing, teaching or producing music, they're pros.

[allenhopkins]

Fascinating to see an explication of the NYSSMA grading system, or a related matrix. As a high school flautist (flute player) in Honeoye NY, the highest grade I achieved was a "red" medal (lower than a "blue") in a Grade 4 solo. I think it was my junior year.

Our band, which included players from 5th grade through high school, achieved a blue ribbon in Grade 4 one year, and Bob Beach, instrumental music teacher and band leader, was exultant. We could never compete at the higher levels, since our tiny school had to include pre-middle-school kids to achieve a "quorum." The year we got the ribbon, he drilled and drilled us for months on the contest repertoire. One of the pieces was a high-school-simplified version of Vaughan Williams' Folk Song Suite. I can still whistle some of the melodies, 60 years later.

A wise person once advised me, "You'll never be as good as the best player you hear, or as bad as the worst." Makes me intermediate, I guess.

[joh]

Fascinating to see an explication of the NYSSMA grading system, or a related matrix. As a high school flautist (flute player) in Honeoye NY, the highest grade I achieved was a "red" medal (lower than a "blue") in a Grade 4 solo. I think it was my junior year.

Our band, which included players from 5th grade through high school, achieved a blue ribbon in Grade 4 one year, and Bob Beach, instrumental music teacher and band leader, was exultant. We could never compete at the higher levels, since our tiny school had to include pre-middle-school kids to achieve a "quorum." The year we got the ribbon, he drilled and drilled us for months on the contest repertoire. One of the pieces was a high-school-simplified version of Vaughan Williams' Folk Song Suite. I can still whistle some of the melodies, 60 years later.

A wise person once advised me, "You'll never be as good as the best player you hear, or as bad as the worst." Makes me intermediate, I guess.

Interlude..
Wow, never thought I'd run across someone from Honeoye, NY on a popular Internet forum like mandolincafe! Hello from a Naples, NY native (but current California resident..) :-)

[Mark Gunter]

Somewhere between “having it all together” and “some assembly required”

[oldsoldier181]

In the piping world, we had grades-from grade 5 (lowest), to open (what you would usually call a professional). Even open players, there were some that were better than others. Some people just have a knack for playing. In order to advance grades, you would attend sanctioned events (here on the east coast, it was the EUSPBA), and there were tunes for each grade level. You would select one of them (up through grade 4-then they select for you), and you played in front of 2 or 3 judges. Lower grades would allow a drummer, to help keep time. It was all pretty rigid. In order to move up a grade, you needed to be recommended to move up.
Thats not to say there werent many great pipers that never went through that process-but, most accomplished ones did, and were usually proud of their accomplishments-rightly so.

But, I have a question on this. At what point do you consider yourself no longer a beginner? I started playing in earnest about 5 weeks ago. I cant really read music, as pipe music was pretty simple-9 notes, only 1 scale. I am struggling to read music now-I use tab at the same time-but my instructor said for a rank beginner, I have a good grasp of timing and can work out the music. The fret board is still foreign to me (and will be, i suspect, for quite some time), but being familiar with the music I want to play (celtic) makes learning the tunes a little easier, as they are in my head anyway.
So, just curious. At what point did you consider yourself no longer a beginner? When you had a few tunes under your belt? When the instrument became an extension of you, and you werent constantly fiddling (no pun intended) with it to get it "just right"?
I made it to grade 3 as a piper (in a band), but never really considered myself that great a piper. I could tune, I was the pipe sergeant for a while, I could keep rhythm, and usually didnt have issues picking up tunes, even by ear. But even then, there were times where I CONSTANTLY fought the pipes, and I find I am constantly trying to get my position with the mandolin right. I am not trying to rush it, I am just curious at what point in your playing did you "settle in" and feel comfortable?

[Mark Gunter]

@oldsoldier181
At five or six years now, I'm still just beginning. That's not to say I can't "settle in" and "feel comfortable" sometimes, I do sometimes. Also, sometimes the musicians I play with think more highly of my skills than they should. The question you're asking is nearly the same as the one that started this thread, that is:

When am I no longer considered a Beginner = When am I considered an intermediate

To me, it's not even a useful question, unless you need to fit in to some particular school or camp.

I would say at five weeks, most everyone would consider themselves a beginner. I would also say that once you have some basics understood you should not limit yourself to "easy beginner" music, you should try to play more advanced music any time you feel like it in order to stretch your capabilities, and you should play with more advanced players for the same reason, if they allow you to.

Music theory vs. playing music

Music theory is a body of knowledge with some mathematical laws to consider, and I believe that understanding music theory can inform your playing. Many of us need to understand some music theory in order to advance toward competency.

Playing music requires technique and technical prowess which can be practiced and refined.

Rather than grading yourself, IMO its good to just work on your technique and musicality and practice what you want to play and how you want to sound. Studying to understand everything that goes into that is helpful.

And for sure, have fun with it.

[Dave Reiner]

At our Fiddle Hell Festival, whether in person or online, attendees self-assess their levels to decide what workshops and jams to attend. Here's what we tell them (and note that the same person can be at different levels in different styles):

We've given a lot of thought to how best to describe experience levels for workshops and jam sessions. Our four levels, introduced in 2017, are approximations that you can use as guidelines to pick your workshops and jams.

If you're not sure about your level, ask in the Community under the topic "Questions about Workshop & Jam LEVELS," or just find the sessions where you're comfortable once you're at Fiddle Hell Online. There are several very helpful workshops early in the four days if you've had little experience learning by ear or jamming. Some jams are up-to-speed; others are slow.

Fiddlers are welcome, and so are mandolin players, violists, cellists, oldtime banjo players, guitar players, and singers. For musicians playing other acoustic instruments than these, Fiddle Hell Online is a chance to join in as well.

Please read through these four levels, and the advice that follows.

Level 1 Beginner Knows 8 tunes or more; working on basics of rhythm, tone, intonation, bowing, repertoire, playing by ear; would like to play with others; has fun! In workshops: expecting simple tunes, taught slowly, with help on technique and style. In jams: expecting easy and common tunes, s l o w tempos, and more guidance on jamming basics.

Level 2 Low Intermediate Knows 20 tunes or more, can play at a reasonable speed (mainly from memory) in one or more traditional styles, working on technique, on going beyond the basic tune, and perhaps on jamming; has fun! In workshops: looking for simpler tunes, taught more slowly. In jams: expecting well-known tunes, slower tempos and more direct guidance.

Level 3 High Intermediate Knows 40 tunes or more, can play up to speed (usually from memory) in one or more traditional styles, working on technique, on going beyond the basic tune, and perhaps on jamming; has fun! In workshops: looking for more challenging intermediate tunes, taught more quickly, with a focus on stylistic aspects. In jams, expecting a broader range of tunes, faster tempos and less guidance.

Level 4 Advanced Knows larger repertoire in one or more traditional styles, plays with nuance (from memory) within these styles, has generally solid technique, has a fair amount of experience playing with others; has fun! In workshops: looking a relatively fast teaching pace, challenging tunes, and a focus on ornaments, variations, and nuances of style. In jams: expecting fast tempos, challenging and wide-ranging tunes, and little guidance. About 10% of FH attendees are professionals, and several of the Advanced sessions will focus on career-enhancing skills.

In addition to the tune counts above, there are at least three separate aspects of levels that you may wish to balance in choosing workshops, including technical facility on the instrument, ability to learn by ear, and familiarity with the musical style being taught. If you have considerable facility on your instrument, and are fast at learning by ear, but are not familiar with the style being taught, it's reasonable to attend L3 or L4 workshops. If you are very new to learning by ear, or have limited capability on your instrument, stick with the L1 or L2 workshops to start, even if you're quite familiar with the style. You don't have to think of yourself as being at an inflexible level; you might be L1 in some traditional styles or types of sessions, L2 or L3 in others that you are more familiar with.

Sometimes, sessions are for mixed levels, such as L1 L2. In that case, the L1 players may find some parts of the workshop to be a challenge, and the L2 players may find some material to be a bit slow-paced. We ask for your patience here, from both points of view!

Naturally, the session leaders pay attention to who shows up and how well they seem to be absorbing the material, but leaders do try to teach or lead at the "advertised" levels. To give an example, even if an L1 player sits in on an L4 workshop and asks basic questions, it should remain an L4 workshop, with a fast pace and less hand-holding. Conversely, if an L4 player joins a L1 workshop, it should remain an L1 workshop, with a slower pace and more time for questions. Please speak up if you’d like something explained or repeated, especially in lower level workshops. Even at L3 and L4 jams, the leader should announce names and keys of tunes.

There are often clues to the level of a session in its title or description. A "slow jam" should be just that; one described as "up-to-speed" or "no holds barred" will be more challenging.

Of course, if you find a session to be too difficult or too easy or are not enjoying it for any reason, please head off to a different one. Or take a break and relax.

More info at https://fiddlehell.org

[Dave Reiner]

Removed duplicate post.

[allenhopkins]

Interlude..
Wow, never thought I'd run across someone from Honeoye, NY on a popular Internet forum like mandolincafe! Hello from a Naples, NY native (but current California resident..).

Well, to be more exact, my family lived in Canadice, but I went to Honeoye Central School. Graduated a class of 28 in 1961; we were the first of the "big classes" (!), since the class of 1960 had only 14 in it.

If you want an example of "culture shock," try Honeoye to Harvard. Don't think I've ever completely recovered...

[Bob Gnann]

Honeoye, not to be confused with Honeoye Falls, NY.

[JeffD]

I personally do not adopt any kind of hierarchical rating system. I am merely responding to the OP by providing some of the rating systems out there.

My own view, as applies to me and not as a recommendation, and a policy that has kept me sane in the game for a long time, is that I do not compare myself with others, I compare myself with my previous self. I try and pay attention to what I am now good at that i wasn't before and what I am now asking of myself that I cannot yet do.

I have found there are always folks better than me. And also worse. Wherever I am I am in the middle. And truth is I always will be. It is a lot like being on a journey. I am not starting out, and I have clearly not reached my destination, but I am eternally enroute.

[maxr]

IMO, it's very hard to put a formal definition on this. As a onetime music booking agent, I'd say a professional musician is one who has the skills required to make a living from music, not neccessarily a vituoso player or entertainer. Some virtuosos are wonderful players who couldn't organise getting out of bed in the morning, never mind getting to a string of gigs on time and providing an entertaining evening for paying customers. So, "professional" covers a huge range of music abilities, depending on the technical skills required to play the chosen genre of music. In most fields of music there are "semi pros" or "amateurs" who can give the average "professional" a good run in relation to their playing abilities, and to a lesser degree there are also "professionals" whose musical abilities may be no more than "intermediate", but who are good entertainers.

Then again, how about e,g, a 'classical' musician who (let's say) has top level skills playing Brahms Bartok or Mozart, but can't improvise, swing, or play jazz or Irish music so it feels right? You could say they're professional level at 'classical' music and 'intermediate' at those other styles, because they can play the notes but don't have the feel. Same with those who can play Bluegrass or Celtic styles convincingly but can only really play the notes of a 'classical' piece because they're not up on the feel. There are very few 'Renaissance men/women' in music who can 'do it all'.

It seems to me that 'intermediate' is a term most used in descriptions of music method books, and it indicates to me the vast majority of musicians, who can benefit from a good non beginners method book in either any musical style, or any style other than their chosen speciality. So what's a 'beginner' in music? Without meaning to be hard on beginners (I'm a beginner on mando) I'd suggest that might be someone who has not yet acquired the technical skills to play simple pieces in a way that produces pleasure in the listener rather than sympathy - although in the case of bagpipes that may be setting the bar a bit high

And it says 'Quick Reply' down here - sheesh.

[Sue Rieter]

It seems to me that 'intermediate' is a term most used in descriptions of music method books, and it indicates to me the vast majority of musicians, who can benefit from a good non beginners method book in either any musical style, or any style other than their chosen speciality. So what's a 'beginner' in music? Without meaning to be hard on beginners (I'm a beginner on mando) I'd suggest that might be someone who has not yet acquired the technical skills to play simple pieces in a way that produces pleasure in the listener rather than sympathy - although in the case of bagpipes that may be setting the bar a bit high .

On my recent trip, my adult kids seemed to enjoy my playing. But I suspect it was because they don't know any better

[JeffD]

Some virtuosos are wonderful players who couldn't organise getting out of bed in the morning, never mind getting to a string of gigs on time and providing an entertaining evening for paying customers..

Not even hyperbole but dead on correct. I have met a few fiddle players that can be described this way.

One I met in Edinburgh, Scotland, whose playing was sublime. Scottish fiddle tunes and Swedish fiddle tunes. A kind of a Kevin Burke beauty to his playing. Better played than many a recorded fiddle. Not one recording of his exists. Some bootleg from a various pub sessions, but nothing produced. His reason, "well then i would have to get an alarm clock, and a datebook and an accompanist, ... ... its just not worth it."