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Thread: Memorizing a song

  1. #76
    Registered User John Kelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Memorizing a song

    Would the armpit fart be the ideal way to learn tunes such as Blowin' in the Wind and Windy and Warm, Sue?

    Seriously, with the climate summit here in Glasgow at the moment and so much hot air being emitted there, surely the AF will be on the prohibited list very shortly?
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Memorizing a song

    Quote Originally Posted by John Bertotti View Post
    I look at it this way. If you have the ability to sing, hum, whistle, arm pit fart, I don't care, in tune and it helps you learn the tune then by all means do so. If you don't then find something else. That's what i have taken from these posts going back and forth. In the end it seems repetition and good practice habits are the best way for me, but I can hum and make noises close enough to help as well. Sadly I can't armpit fart at all so that avenue is lost to me. I'm heartbroken over it, really!
    My sediments exactly!

    What is interesting to me is how after decades of playing—closing in on five of them—I sometimes can’t remember some tunes I used to play for years and let slide. I will wrack my brains and then after maybe 20 or 30 minutes I will remember a sequence of a few notes and the rest of the tune will come back. And with new tunes I try to find a few notes that will trigger the patterns in my brain and fingers.
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  5. #78
    String-Bending Heretic mandocrucian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Memorizing a song

    Psyche:
    How to maintain a healthy brain
    Adopt these lifestyle changes and you will not only sharpen your mind today but also reduce your risk of dementia later on....

    https://psyche.co/guides/how-to-main...sk-of-dementia

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    Registered User Jairo Ramos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Memorizing a song

    It is obvious and to be expected that after the question asked by the op, many of the members of the forum will give their opinion. I, imho, have always believed that the best way to answer many of these questions is to begin the answer by clarifying "this is what has worked for me". All individuals are one world and all that that implies, and what works for me will surely not work for many.

    I have always found it annoying when some forum members tacitly resort to the fallacy of authority and their opinion is blunt: "This is the only way to achieve it." The reality is that in music, since it is not an exact science, I believe, the individual and his circumstance are an essential part, if not the most. Imho.

    I have never hummed the music I play, and I have never made my friends suffer with my singing. Sure, from time to time I hum a trendy song when I walk or am in the bathroom. For me, the method that has worked is repetition and finding patterns in the pieces that I try to learn and, above all, that I like the piece and feel pleasure interpreting it. I would say almost the same as Jim Garber has thought.
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    Registered User paulspafford's Avatar
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    Default Re: Memorizing a song

    I've also had a lot of troubles with memorization, but seem to be improving in that area since the pandemic - now that I'm spending more time at home playing.

    I'm about halfway through reading the Brainjo book. It was written by a neurologist/banjo player on how to use what neurologists know about learning to become better players. There are some really wonderful chunks in there about memory. It's written by a banjo player, but isn't banjo-specific. It can be applied to any instrument, or really anything that you want to learn.

    Like I said, I'm only about half through it, so I haven't had the chance to apply much, but it all makes sense.

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    Registered User Sue Rieter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Memorizing a song

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian View Post
    Psyche:
    How to maintain a healthy brain
    Adopt these lifestyle changes and you will not only sharpen your mind today but also reduce your risk of dementia later on....

    https://psyche.co/guides/how-to-main...sk-of-dementia
    That's a pretty comprehensive article, Niles. All good advice. Thanks for that.

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    Default Re: Memorizing a song

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    I’t’s important to realize that learning an instrument (at least a first instrument) involves quite a bit of theory.
    I think I'd disagree with that, Ralph - it's probably very useful to learn 'quite a bit of theory', but many, especially those learning to play 'the tune' like fiddlers, even classical violinists, often don't learn much theory in the early stages. They just learn how to get the sound off the page, or from their heads or a recording onto the instrument. I'm not suggesting that's the right way to do it, just that's the way many start in practise.

  13. #83
    small instrument, big fun Dan in NH's Avatar
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    Default Re: Memorizing a song

    I play a lot of Irish jigs. In jigs the quarter notes are split up into triplets. So I memorize the song two triplets at a time.

    I’m sure I won’t make any friends saying this, but here goes - IMO you don’t really know a song until you can play it through without a chart in front of you.

    It’s like how jazz musicians look down on players who use The Real Book as a crutch. Sure, use The Real Book as a tool to learn the song, but until you can play it through without the book then you HAVEN’T learned the song.

  14. #84
    Registered User John Kelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Memorizing a song

    You have a friend here, Phydaux! I would certainly agree with you that you really know a tune when you can play it unaided from memory.
    I'm playing all the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order. - Eric Morecambe

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  15. #85

    Default Re: Memorizing a song

    Quote Originally Posted by paulspafford View Post
    I've also had a lot of troubles with memorization, but seem to be improving in that area since the pandemic - now that I'm spending more time at home playing.

    I'm about halfway through reading the Brainjo book. It was written by a neurologist/banjo player on how to use what neurologists know about learning to become better players. There are some really wonderful chunks in there about memory. It's written by a banjo player, but isn't banjo-specific. It can be applied to any instrument, or really anything that you want to learn.

    Like I said, I'm only about half through it, so I haven't had the chance to apply much, but it all makes sense.
    I am working through it too, but the first couple things I got out of it that I applied with immediate results were the parts about (and I am certainly paraphrasing what I remember - consider this thread's topic ) 1) on average (bell curve), many folks have about 20 minutes where they can really focus and 2) using a metronome helps memorization.

    I was using a metronome pretty regularly at one point, but likely misinterpreted some advice to stop using it on one piece because it really needed to be played in a much freer way (rubato, etc.). Working on a newer piece without the metronome I kept having lapses, so after reading that bit I turned on the metronome again, and within a couple days I have memorized it. Now, as I'm building some actual technique, I alternate back and forth, using the metronome a couple times (as I slowly bump it up 1 bpm), concentrating on insuring I can still get through it completely, and then turn it off, and incorporate the tempo variation the piece really requires.

    On the 20 minute thing, I think it's pretty sensible, and it (along with the metronome) seem to have helped. I work on the new piece after a brief warmup, and somewhere before a half hour goes by, if I've got time, I just switch to playing other stuff that I'm practicing, but not specifically trying to memorize. If the day has time and my fingers are up for it I'll do a 2nd session later in the day.
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    Registered User Bob Buckingham's Avatar
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    Default Re: Memorizing a song

    I listen to what I want to learn and get is in my head so I can sing it. Then start working on it. Learning, for me, from strictly a written source is less dynamic, less organic. I tell students to get to know the music so it is in your DNA. That is what I do. I can remember arrangements from 45 years ago. But that band played a lot of gigs.

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    Default Re: Memorizing a song

    Just what Bob said. Also, find one note in the tune which stands out for you, locate that note on your mandolin and expand the tune from there. Several years ago I could only play music from a musical score; then I caught the ITM (Irish Traditional Music) bug. I was playing my Irish 8 keyed flute at the time and if the session didn't play the tune more than twice before heading to the next tune, my learning of it would be stuffed. I'd learn a couple of tunes a week by silently lilting them to myself while at work and then transfer them to flute and mandolin when I got home. For me the tunes aren't memorised as sequential phrases, but more like watching a photo coming to life in a dark room developing tray (i.e. random locations in a random order). Now of course musicians just record the tune on TunePal which locates it in the database, they then download the score and play the tune back on their phones. If you are interested in learning Celtic music As of 2016 TunePal provided access to over 17,000 Irish, Welsh, Scottish, Breton, American marching band and Canadian dance tunes.

  18. #88
    String-Bending Heretic mandocrucian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Memorizing a song

    A few excerpts from this article: Mama Was Right! Study Shows Students Learn Better When They Take Handwritten Notes which is

    Writing by Hand Enhances Learning and Retention
    Researchers from Princeton University and the University of California at Los Angeles conducted three tests with university students to determine what differences there might be for the learner between taking notes on a laptop computer versus writing them by hand.

    What they found is that those subjects who wrote their notes on paper retained more of what they heard and were able to more effectively conceptualize the subject matter. In fact, the researchers went so far as to say:...

    How Handwriting Reinforces Learning
    Keyboarding has increasingly become a more valued skill than handwriting and elementary schools’ curricula have changed to stress digital mastery over handwriting.

    This is contradictory to a body of research that indicates writing by hand promotes literacy through its enforcement of alphabetical letter processing in the brain.

    The act of physically writing letters on paper engages different senses and requires finer motor skills, resulting in motor memory in connection with learning the letters themselves and the words that they create.

    The sensori-motor experience of writing by hand has a measurable effect on the brain not found when the same letters are typed. Letters are processed differently than other shapes because of their inherent meaning and role in language development.
    Well, I've made my preferences pretty clear...to take the auditory route for getting the song or tune into your head/ear by humming (or singing) it as you practice. However, there can be other vehicles to help embed the material in your brain, if you are willing to expend some time/energy doing it.

    However, too many folks want the "easy way/shortcut". No, they don't want to learn the tune off a CD by ear; they'd much rather have it handed to them in some lead sheet in either standard notation or tablature, or both. Nothing like some external memory on paper from a book or printed out from www.thesession.com or some website. Minimal work involved!!! Hallelujah!

    OK. you have your lead sheet or tab.... why don't you take the time to hand copy (write) the notation or tab onto a piece of tab/notation paper? Or if it is tab...copy the tab and then translate that into standard notation? Or translate notation into tablature (in the neck position(s) of your choice?) Doing so involves other neural processing in your noggin, and the more places (and forms) you have info stored, the deeper the retention. Plus, it could also make you more comfortable with reading standard notation in the process. (Want to go deeper? Notate it on the Bass clef as well as the treble clef.)

    For those who play several different instruments, why not tab it out for mandolin, and then do it again in guitar tab?

    If "memorization" is the underlying goal.. explore how the memory works and functions!!!

    I'm probably wasting my "breath", but here's some recent personal efforts. Six months ago, I decided to write Left-Handed.. In fact, today marks day 184 and the beginning of month seven. Now the underlying goal was to develop the fine motor control of the left hand.

    After working at first with the printed alphabet, I moved on to cursive. But the alphabet drills became boring when I had some control the pen. So, I needed content to keep the mechanical practice interesting. A lot of times, I couldn't think of anything to scrawl to make my daily practice quota, and it would devolve into "Dear Diarrhea" entries of random free-form lateral thought, often coming out like a Robert Crumb rant/commentary in some of his comix strips.

    Again. the primary goal was left-handed practice. But why not harness the physical writing for content memorization on top of that? "Yeah...I'll write down some song lyrics, that's the ticket." (let's see: "People Are Strange", "Uncle John's Band", "Friend of The Devil", "Big Shot" [Bonzo Dog Band], [Dan Hicks] "I Asked My Doctor, 'Murder In The Red Barn" [Tom Waits], "In Germany Before The War" [Randy Newman], "Roadhouse Blues/Alabama Song" and other lyrics I'd want to recall better and quote at will.)

    But WAIT! Let's go even further. Take those same songs, plug them into Google Translate and save versions in Swedish (and/or Finnish). Since I've already got the English lyrics locked, in tandem with the melody, I'll copy by LH my Swedish translation into the work notebooks, getting my mechanical penmanship practice, but learning more foreign vocabulary in a manner which seems to be more easily memorizable (Or I'd copy the grammer notes/explantions from the DuoLingo lessons, to rehash that info. And taking the effort of writing it mechanically tends to embed it better.)

    "Människor är konstiga, när du är en främling, ansikten ser fula ut när du är ensam." "People are strange, when you're a stranger, Faces look ugly when you're alone..." PERMANTLY EMBEDED!

    (Now and then, I'll even jot some tunes I know onto notation or tab paper. From that handwriting aspect, this is much more difficult purely from the reduced size of the notes and tab numbers.)

    Anyway.... that is how I've piggybacked several layers of info on top of LHed fine motor control.

    If someone wants to dismiss these ideas, or tell me I'm full of it, I'd be happy to debate with any of the higher level players and pros players/teachers on the Cafe, or those with expertise in the brain/mental professions (neuroligist, psychologist, stroke rehab therapists, etc.

    Niles Hokkanen
    Last edited by mandocrucian; Dec-20-2021 at 6:47pm.

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  20. #89
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
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    Default Re: Memorizing a song

    When in school or training I would have data coming so quick I switched to printing my notes as fast as possible. Later i would have to rewrite everything as I translated my chicken scratching. The lessons I did this in and where i had to rewrite the notes i did the best in. So I can see the truth of it.
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    Default Re: Memorizing a song

    Quote Originally Posted by maxr View Post
    I think I'd disagree with that, Ralph - it's probably very useful to learn 'quite a bit of theory', but many, especially those learning to play 'the tune' like fiddlers, even classical violinists, often don't learn much theory in the early stages. They just learn how to get the sound off the page, or from their heads or a recording onto the instrument. I'm not suggesting that's the right way to do it, just that's the way many start in practise.
    "Involves" is a statement of fact, not an opinion. Learning an instrument means learning to make music on that instrument. Which you can't do without learning some, and something about, music.

    Theory is coherent, organized, knowledge. What may appear as mechanical rote learning, e.g., learning the fretboard, involves theory. How exactly to organize the learning process, is largely individual, of course, and also depends on previous experience. For instance, when I took up the mandolin in 1967 I already had 10 years of guitar, which is where I learned music.

    Classical training involves not just "a bit" of theory. And, perhaps, I should add to those who pride themselves in "playing by ear", ear training also plays a large part in classical schooling. How many of you on this forum are trained in identifying, e.g., not only chords, but also their inversions and voicings, by ear?


    Learning a language from a textbook usually begins with short texts introducing some vocabulary and a theoretical topic. I believe something analogous applies to music, in many cases.

  22. #91

    Default Re: Memorizing a song

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    ...Learning an instrument means learning to make music on that instrument. Which you can't do without learning some, and something about, music...
    But there are many interpretations of music. What you learn about, and call, music; I may possess the antithesis. I may produce a spontaneous noise and derive musical pleasure and meaning from it. I wouldn't call it "naive" - for it would be derived from my personal experience - but it could be derived from none of the aforementioned formal elements you delineate.

    “There is no reality except the one contained within us. That is why so many people live such an unreal life. They take the images outside of them for reality and never allow the world within to assert itself.”

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    Default Re: Memorizing a song

    Quote Originally Posted by phydaux View Post
    IMO you don’t really know a song until you can play it through without a chart in front of you.
    .
    I am going to have to respectfully, but entirely disagree. There is music I have no intention of ever playing with the sheet in front of me. And I know the tune in that I can play it very well with the music in front of me. I can probably muddle through it without but I see no point to it.

    I think you know the tune when you can play the tune.
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  25. #93
    Registered User Matt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Memorizing a song

    Quote Originally Posted by John Bertotti View Post
    I have a seriously hard time learning songs as played and remembering them. I don’t know that I have done it more than a handful of times and that’s being generous. Any thoughts on how to improve that issue of my learning process?
    It’s cool playing songs from memory, I think people that have started and stuck with an instrument for decades while learning and playing tunes from certain genres are fortunate. Not being one of those people, I plug along with my heavy duty Manhasset music stand stacked with blues tunes I’m working on.

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    Default Re: Memorizing a song

    Quote Originally Posted by phydaux View Post
    ... IMO you don’t really know a song until you can play it through without a chart in front of you. ...
    Since we're putting a spotlight on this quote, it's probably good to point out that some of us never look at a chart, exclusively improvising tunes by ear. I believe that's been discussed at length in this thread months ago, but there it is.

    I'd suggest that since perfection in front of an audience is so elusive, it's probably best to generally learn a tune in whatever way a person does that, and then spend time practicing alternative ways to play it, and then specifically practicing mistake recovery.

    Everybody's different though, so YMMV...
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    Well, this thread is about memorization, which raises the question of what exactly it means to know a song/tune, what actually belongs to the tune and what is someboy’s interpretation, contribution, or arrangement. Some of the first tunes I learned on the mandolin were the fiddle tunes that I copied from Howdy Forrester’s album Fancy Fiddlin’ Country Style — in the beginning on the guitar. They were actually my motive for taking up the mandolin
    because several of these tunes had some very frequent and awkward string changes on guitar.

    I of course realized that the tunes differed greatly in character from one another. E.g., tunes like Sally Goodin and Gray Eagle are really just starting points for (Texas style?) variations so I simply learned the themes and ignored the rest. Brilliancy (which my band recorded in 1969, 25 years before Sam Bush) consists of three parts, with a few exact repeats and seems like a perfectly balanced composition of scale and arpeggio figures. I copied that tune as faithfully as I possibly could — only much later did I find, and try out, variations in certain places.

    Possibly the most elaborate of these tunes was Rutland’s Reel, which is such a perfect composition that I resist tampering with it. With the exception of one section (the third, I believe), consisting of four different but similar two-bar phrases, which simply calls out for an alternative, possibly improvised. This section is not repeated. So I either omit it or replace it with my own variation or improvisation,

    Very recently, well into my 70’s (I’m 77 today ) I finally learned Fiddler’s Waltz (written by Benny Martin). I already knew several sections but I had been stumped by the next-to-last one; a long irregular stream of eighth notes with almost no repeats. It had every sign of being improvised. Was it even worth learning? I decided to do so on hearing another recording by Forrester. On playing it over I repeatedly made a two or three mistakes and found that they worked just as well as the original. So I kept these.

    And the reason I yet today have no trouble recalling this tortuous and irregular melody is the effort it took to transcribe it.

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    Default Re: Memorizing a song

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    Very recently, well into my 70’s (I’m 77 today ) I finally learned Fiddler’s Waltz (written by Benny Martin). I already knew several sections but I had been stumped
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    Default Re: Memorizing a song

    For lyrics, the only thing I can think to do is sign them - a lot. When I do, I try to imagine the scene sometimes which can help - like in Old Home Place. Guy starts out at home for the last 10 years, leaves for a girl, loses the girl, the job, and his house for 10 year. Now he wishes he was dead. Remember this path helps me remember the lyrics in order.

    For notation / melodies, I find that learning them in multiple places on the neck is a great help. I start off with whatever is easiest to learn, but then start looking to move to other positions and fingers. As I do that, I really learn the notes in the song. After a few runs, it's easier to do it from memory
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    Default Re: Memorizing a song

    Your helpful guinea pig here. I've been beating my head against this problem for years and years and my brain is not getting any younger. But now I've got a solution, no thanks to me.

    I'm a committed by-the-book learner. I grew up in a family of classical musicians, and for them it wasn't music if it wasn't on the page. I absorbed this as if it were holy writ. (No pun intended.) It just so happens that I've been unable to memorize any music at all for my entire life. No problem when I was acting in remembering scripts; no problem in my day job when I had to memorize or extemporize. But music? Fuhgeddaboutit.

    One thing an another happened, and I've recently started learning with Pete Martin. Pete insisted that I learn to play by ear. He did it by giving me electronic files of songs and asking me to learn it phrase by phrase, picking out the melody on my mandolin and transcribing it. I was good, I didn't cheat and look at the music, though all of the tunes are readily available in standard notation and tab. I told him I wouldn't be able to do it, but I'd try, because after all, I'm paying him to teach me.

    Now, about a month later (4 or 5 lessons?) I'm a different player. I've trained my ear (a little) and learned to trust me ear (a little) ... and most importantly, this magic thing has happened. All of a sudden my fingers know without my brain having to calculate where the sounds are. I say "sounds" not "notes" because my fingers know what sounds I'm looking for, and they don't care about what notes they are.

    I'm not saying that I don't use the music page some. I do: for example, when I need to work out timing or fingering or even a phrase that I just can't hear.. But I'm learning principally to play the music, not "play the score." The melody in my head reminds me of what the sounds are, and the sounds are now connected to places on the fretboard. Since I'm not relying on the written page, I have more ... let's say "headspace" to be able to "memorize." It's simply amazing. Black magic! Thanks to Pete Martin!
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  33. #99

    Default Re: Memorizing a song

    I always find it most difficult to recall the B part of a tune and sometimes get B parts mixed up when playing a memorized song through after not playing it for a while.
    Also heard it is good practice when practicing a tune to play it through (at least) 3 times.
    .

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    Default Re: Memorizing a song

    I have to give the OP credit for trying as hard as he is to learn how to memorize, to admit so openly to his problems with the process, and to offer himself up for the sort of critical analysis of these and many varieties of advice provided by Café members. Brave soul!

    I'll repeat what others have said here: repetition is key to memorizing. And furthermore, since the goal is to be able to play the tunes you want to play again and again anyway, do so as part of your practice routine. You should get a good head start that way.

    If you put in the time this way, you should be able to reach a point where the use of some sort of mnemonic device or cheat sheet will jog your memory enough for the rest to follow. Eventually, you won't even need those anymore.

    What you don't want to do, or shouldn't (IMO) is rely heavily on any kind of visual aid - sheet music, charts, tab, whatever - as you need to internalize the learning process. Perhaps using such will help get you started, but you should wean yourself off them ASAP, so using them doesn't become a habit. It's best to be independent and self-reliant.

    I recall reading an anecdote about how orchestra musicians in the classical era were often considered with much condescension, even reviled as being utterly useless until a piece of sheet music were placed in front of them. Then suddenly a transformation would occur, in which they could produce wonderful music. But once the music were removed, they would revert to uselessness. This may be an exaggeration, but I believe it illustrates how not to be, and how much better truly learning music is the superior approach.

    The modern equivalent of this is the popularity of iPads as performing aids. I've seen this an awful lot over the past dozen or more years, though I believe they are mostly used to provide song lyrics. Indeed, I'm currently playing in a trio, and both main singers use iPads for every song. We have to wait for whoever is singing the next song to dial it up. Even if it is a song they have sung for years, even decades, they won't even try without their prompter. And even once the song is found, the rendition of it tends to be less convincing than if it were sung from memory. This is more true of the drummer, who isn't much of a singer to begin with, than the guitarist, who is. The drummer's lack of expressiveness is disappointing. He may get the words and notes right, but he doesn't put much feeling into them.

    I don't know if there is a musical/melodic equivalent to these devices, but I would look askance at them if there is. But who knows? That might be just the thing for some people. Just not for me.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

    Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!

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