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Thread: Milanese / Lombardic mandolin

  1. #1
    Jo Dusepo, luthier Dusepo's Avatar
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    Default Milanese / Lombardic mandolin

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/353519953...59.m1431.l2649

    Looks in pretty good condition. I was tempted to put in a bid myself but not sure I can justify to myself buying one. The price is still pretty reasonable for these, as they don't come up often and when they do are pretty pricey.
    (Famous last words, this may have gone way up in price since I posted this)




    I am a luthier specialising in historical and world stringed instruments. You can see more info at my website.

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    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milanese / Lombardic mandolin

    All right, I am admittedly quite ignorant in this area. But you say it's a Lombardic mandolin, the seller says it's a lute in the title but mandolin in the body. I see six strings in single courses, which is a guitar set-up, though no one is saying that. So ... what is it, exactly? I'm much more willing to believe your assessment than the seller's, as I am already well aware of your expertise in the field.

    The bidding has risen some since you posted, yes, but it seems to have levelled off. Cagey last-minute bidding could win it for you.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!

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    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milanese / Lombardic mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by journeybear View Post
    All right, I am admittedly quite ignorant in this area. But you say it's a Lombardic mandolin, the seller says it's a lute in the title but mandolin in the body. I see six strings in single courses, which is a guitar set-up, though no one is saying that. So ... what is it, exactly? I'm much more willing to believe your assessment than the seller's, as I am already well aware of your expertise in the field.
    It's just another form of Italian mandolin - a sort of miniature lute holdover, related to the smaller size lutes of ages past; thus the guitar connection - six single courses - looks obvious, but it's deeper and goes back to all those treble lutes of the Renaissance.

    The mandolin we play, the 4 course violin tuned instrument with metal strings, is only one of several "mandolins" that could have become popular. Not to mention the Spanish bandurria!

    if I recall, the Vivaldi mandolin pieces were actually written for a similar instrument, not our Neapolitan mandolins.

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    Registered User Simon DS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milanese / Lombardic mandolin

    Very pretty instrument, it certainly would be fun to put together a whole repertoire of tunes with this beauty!
    I was wondering about the top and that slightly shaded area. New maybe, or refinished?

  8. #5
    Jo Dusepo, luthier Dusepo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milanese / Lombardic mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by journeybear View Post
    All right, I am admittedly quite ignorant in this area. But you say it's a Lombardic mandolin, the seller says it's a lute in the title but mandolin in the body. I see six strings in single courses, which is a guitar set-up, though no one is saying that. So ... what is it, exactly? I'm much more willing to believe your assessment than the seller's, as I am already well aware of your expertise in the field.

    The bidding has risen some since you posted, yes, but it seems to have levelled off. Cagey last-minute bidding could win it for you.
    Further to what DavidKOS said, this graphic explains well:
    http://www.embergher.com/timmerman/f...ee_PDF_WEB.pdf
    I am a luthier specialising in historical and world stringed instruments. You can see more info at my website.

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    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milanese / Lombardic mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    The mandolin we play, the 4 course violin tuned instrument with metal strings, is only one of several "mandolins" that could have become popular. Not to mention the Spanish bandurria!
    Well, thank goodness - or happenstance - or my lucky stars evolution took the course(s) it did, to arrive at the present day. I've no idea what might have happened if that mandolin that first came my way had been different.

    if I recall, the Vivaldi mandolin pieces were actually written for a similar instrument, not our Neapolitan mandolins.
    So thus very different in terms of fingering. Interesting ...

    And Jo, that chart is both illuminating and intimidating. While I knew it hadn't been a straight path from lute to mandolin, I had no idea our beloved instrument had taken such a convoluted journey to arrive at its present glory. My goodness! There are probably some people around here who shouldn't see this - they'll want at least one of each!

    Thank you both very much. There is such a wealth of knowledge embedded in the collective mind here, it's great to be able to tap into that when required or desired.

    BTW, interesting to see the Lombardo is indeed tuned in fourths, but the third interval is placed between the 6 and 5 string, not the 3 and 2 string as on a modern guitar. Good luck if you decide to bid on this.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

    Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!

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    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milanese / Lombardic mandolin

    And the winner is ... Well, who knows. But yes - it had been sitting at around £100 for a while, then a late flurry pushed it over £170. That's how it goes, sometimes.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

    Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!

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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milanese / Lombardic mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusepo View Post
    Further to what DavidKOS said, this graphic explains well:
    http://www.embergher.com/timmerman/f...ee_PDF_WEB.pdf
    Thanks, Jo, for posting this (and to Alex T for producing such a clear graphic.)

    Do you know if there are any such "trees" that go backwards a bit in time to see where the "Oud-Lute-Mandolin" family branches diverged?

    My nephew, Pablo, has become quite dedicated to early music in his studies and has taken up the lute (he follows you on Instagram!) and now the theorbo
    He plays string bass (now with gut strings) and guittaron so I guess he's used to big instruments.

    He's interested in my old bowlbacks but mostly from a generic perspective. But more info on the lute / mandolin evolution would give us something else to yak about.

    Mick
    Ever tried, ever failed? No matter. Try again, fail again. Fail better.--Samuel Beckett
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milanese / Lombardic mandolin

    There were a few regional variants of mandolins which we here call mandolinos. The Neapolitan and similarly-tuned Roman styles won out as the mandolin in most of the world's eyes. The Lombard/Milanese fixed bridge, 6 course mandolino descended from the baroque mandolino with 6 double courses. The Lombard/Milanese was a single strung version of the baroque. There is also a Brescian which is a gut-strung 4 course single strung fixed bridge tuned the same as our modern mandolin.

    Much more detail in this article.

    I think Jo's post of the eBay instrument would be a bit more pricey if it actually had a name or identifier on it. I think these were prevalent in Italy twoard the end of the last century. Here is my 1896 one by Serafino Casini in Firenze.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milanese / Lombardic mandolin

    Thanks, Jim.

    Wow....that Wiki article is surely a smorgasbord, a charcuterie plate, an antipasto of various schnibbles of information.
    At least a lot of names are included.

    The fun begins when one of the wiki writers attempts to translate Alex's great diagram. It's not reproduced but at least it is linked in a footnote.
    The chitarra battente / battuta as the gateway link to the modern Neapolitan / Roman mandolins is a pretty fascinating hypothesis.

    The time period between me and Pasquale V, Orville G, or Johnny Gimble relative to the history of the instrument is tiny.

    I'm clearly way out of my element.
    Time to plug in the Schwab and turn it up to 7. There's paint that needs pealing.

    It does go up to 11.

    We've got a Periodic Table of Elements shower curtain which provokes daily insights and conversations.
    I should talk to Alex about just such a version of his diagram. Could be as coolioso as a Mandolin Cafe hat. (Which is already muy coolioso.)

    Mick

    Of course, there's the Porta della Mandorla, in my mind one of the most beautiful places to stand in the world.
    Last edited by brunello97; Jun-14-2021 at 7:34pm.
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  19. #11
    Registered User Neil Gladd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Milanese / Lombardic mandolin

    I have already posted this recording in another thread, but thought I would post it again here, as Alfieri was playing a Milanese mandolin with 6 single strings. Tremolo on one string sounds different, and on some of his other records, he was playing some really closely-spaced chords that would not be possible on a Neapolitan mandolin. Although he was not the first mandolinist to record, he was the first Italian mandolinist to record, in 1899.


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