Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: Milanese / Lombardic mandolin

  1. #1
    Jo Dusepo, luthier Dusepo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    London, UK.
    Posts
    529

    Default Milanese / Lombardic mandolin

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/353519953...59.m1431.l2649

    Looks in pretty good condition. I was tempted to put in a bid myself but not sure I can justify to myself buying one. The price is still pretty reasonable for these, as they don't come up often and when they do are pretty pricey.
    (Famous last words, this may have gone way up in price since I posted this)




    I am a luthier specialising in historical and world stringed instruments. You can see more info at my website.

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Dusepo For This Useful Post:


  3. #2
    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Key West
    Posts
    13,152
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Milanese / Lombardic mandolin

    All right, I am admittedly quite ignorant in this area. But you say it's a Lombardic mandolin, the seller says it's a lute in the title but mandolin in the body. I see six strings in single courses, which is a guitar set-up, though no one is saying that. So ... what is it, exactly? I'm much more willing to believe your assessment than the seller's, as I am already well aware of your expertise in the field.

    The bidding has risen some since you posted, yes, but it seems to have levelled off. Cagey last-minute bidding could win it for you.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

    Blues Mando Social Group
    Gibson Mandolins Social Group
    North Florida Mandolin Players Social Group

    Lucinda Williams and Eric Von Schmidt (who would have turned 90 5/28/21), the night devotee met hero (and both my heroes)

  4. The following members say thank you to journeybear for this post:


  5. #3
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    North CA
    Posts
    4,441

    Default Re: Milanese / Lombardic mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by journeybear View Post
    All right, I am admittedly quite ignorant in this area. But you say it's a Lombardic mandolin, the seller says it's a lute in the title but mandolin in the body. I see six strings in single courses, which is a guitar set-up, though no one is saying that. So ... what is it, exactly? I'm much more willing to believe your assessment than the seller's, as I am already well aware of your expertise in the field.
    It's just another form of Italian mandolin - a sort of miniature lute holdover, related to the smaller size lutes of ages past; thus the guitar connection - six single courses - looks obvious, but it's deeper and goes back to all those treble lutes of the Renaissance.

    The mandolin we play, the 4 course violin tuned instrument with metal strings, is only one of several "mandolins" that could have become popular. Not to mention the Spanish bandurria!

    if I recall, the Vivaldi mandolin pieces were actually written for a similar instrument, not our Neapolitan mandolins.

  6. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to DavidKOS For This Useful Post:


  7. #4
    Registered User Simon DS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    South of France
    Posts
    1,280

    Default Re: Milanese / Lombardic mandolin

    Very pretty instrument, it certainly would be fun to put together a whole repertoire of tunes with this beauty!
    I was wondering about the top and that slightly shaded area. New maybe, or refinished?

  8. #5
    Jo Dusepo, luthier Dusepo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    London, UK.
    Posts
    529

    Default Re: Milanese / Lombardic mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by journeybear View Post
    All right, I am admittedly quite ignorant in this area. But you say it's a Lombardic mandolin, the seller says it's a lute in the title but mandolin in the body. I see six strings in single courses, which is a guitar set-up, though no one is saying that. So ... what is it, exactly? I'm much more willing to believe your assessment than the seller's, as I am already well aware of your expertise in the field.

    The bidding has risen some since you posted, yes, but it seems to have levelled off. Cagey last-minute bidding could win it for you.
    Further to what DavidKOS said, this graphic explains well:
    http://www.embergher.com/timmerman/f...ee_PDF_WEB.pdf
    I am a luthier specialising in historical and world stringed instruments. You can see more info at my website.

  9. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Dusepo For This Useful Post:


  10. #6
    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Key West
    Posts
    13,152
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Milanese / Lombardic mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    The mandolin we play, the 4 course violin tuned instrument with metal strings, is only one of several "mandolins" that could have become popular. Not to mention the Spanish bandurria!
    Well, thank goodness - or happenstance - or my lucky stars evolution took the course(s) it did, to arrive at the present day. I've no idea what might have happened if that mandolin that first came my way had been different.

    if I recall, the Vivaldi mandolin pieces were actually written for a similar instrument, not our Neapolitan mandolins.
    So thus very different in terms of fingering. Interesting ...

    And Jo, that chart is both illuminating and intimidating. While I knew it hadn't been a straight path from lute to mandolin, I had no idea our beloved instrument had taken such a convoluted journey to arrive at its present glory. My goodness! There are probably some people around here who shouldn't see this - they'll want at least one of each!

    Thank you both very much. There is such a wealth of knowledge embedded in the collective mind here, it's great to be able to tap into that when required or desired.

    BTW, interesting to see the Lombardo is indeed tuned in fourths, but the third interval is placed between the 6 and 5 string, not the 3 and 2 string as on a modern guitar. Good luck if you decide to bid on this.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

    Blues Mando Social Group
    Gibson Mandolins Social Group
    North Florida Mandolin Players Social Group

    Lucinda Williams and Eric Von Schmidt (who would have turned 90 5/28/21), the night devotee met hero (and both my heroes)

  11. The following members say thank you to journeybear for this post:


  12. #7
    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Key West
    Posts
    13,152
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Milanese / Lombardic mandolin

    And the winner is ... Well, who knows. But yes - it had been sitting at around 100 for a while, then a late flurry pushed it over 170. That's how it goes, sometimes.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

    Blues Mando Social Group
    Gibson Mandolins Social Group
    North Florida Mandolin Players Social Group

    Lucinda Williams and Eric Von Schmidt (who would have turned 90 5/28/21), the night devotee met hero (and both my heroes)

  13. #8
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Ann Arbor/Austin
    Posts
    5,580

    Default Re: Milanese / Lombardic mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusepo View Post
    Further to what DavidKOS said, this graphic explains well:
    http://www.embergher.com/timmerman/f...ee_PDF_WEB.pdf
    Thanks, Jo, for posting this (and to Alex T for producing such a clear graphic.)

    Do you know if there are any such "trees" that go backwards a bit in time to see where the "Oud-Lute-Mandolin" family branches diverged?

    My nephew, Pablo, has become quite dedicated to early music in his studies and has taken up the lute (he follows you on Instagram!) and now the theorbo
    He plays string bass (now with gut strings) and guittaron so I guess he's used to big instruments.

    He's interested in my old bowlbacks but mostly from a generic perspective. But more info on the lute / mandolin evolution would give us something else to yak about.

    Mick
    Ever tried, ever failed? No matter. Try again, fail again. Fail better.--Samuel Beckett
    ______________________

    '05 Cuisinart Toaster
    '93 Chuck Taylor lowtops
    '12 Stetson Open Road
    '06 Bialetti expresso maker
    '14 Irish Linen Ramon Puig

  14. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to brunello97 For This Useful Post:


  15. #9
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    28,466

    Default Re: Milanese / Lombardic mandolin

    There were a few regional variants of mandolins which we here call mandolinos. The Neapolitan and similarly-tuned Roman styles won out as the mandolin in most of the world's eyes. The Lombard/Milanese fixed bridge, 6 course mandolino descended from the baroque mandolino with 6 double courses. The Lombard/Milanese was a single strung version of the baroque. There is also a Brescian which is a gut-strung 4 course single strung fixed bridge tuned the same as our modern mandolin.

    Much more detail in this article.

    I think Jo's post of the eBay instrument would be a bit more pricey if it actually had a name or identifier on it. I think these were prevalent in Italy twoard the end of the last century. Here is my 1896 one by Serafino Casini in Firenze.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	casini1.jpg 
Views:	9 
Size:	177.5 KB 
ID:	194694
    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    2018 Campanella A-5 -- 2007 Brentrup A4C -- 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin -- Huss & Dalton DS -- 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead -- '83 Flatiron A5-2 -- 1939 Gibson L-00 -- 1936 Epiphone Deluxe -- 1928 Gibson L-5 -- ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo -- ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo -- ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo -- National RM-1

  16. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Jim Garber For This Useful Post:


  17. #10
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Ann Arbor/Austin
    Posts
    5,580

    Default Re: Milanese / Lombardic mandolin

    Thanks, Jim.

    Wow....that Wiki article is surely a smorgasbord, a charcuterie plate, an antipasto of various schnibbles of information.
    At least a lot of names are included.

    The fun begins when one of the wiki writers attempts to translate Alex's great diagram. It's not reproduced but at least it is linked in a footnote.
    The chitarra battente / battuta as the gateway link to the modern Neapolitan / Roman mandolins is a pretty fascinating hypothesis.

    The time period between me and Pasquale V, Orville G, or Johnny Gimble relative to the history of the instrument is tiny.

    I'm clearly way out of my element.
    Time to plug in the Schwab and turn it up to 7. There's paint that needs pealing.

    It does go up to 11.

    We've got a Periodic Table of Elements shower curtain which provokes daily insights and conversations.
    I should talk to Alex about just such a version of his diagram. Could be as coolioso as a Mandolin Cafe hat. (Which is already muy coolioso.)

    Mick

    Of course, there's the Porta della Mandorla, in my mind one of the most beautiful places to stand in the world.
    Last edited by brunello97; Jun-14-2021 at 7:34pm.
    Ever tried, ever failed? No matter. Try again, fail again. Fail better.--Samuel Beckett
    ______________________

    '05 Cuisinart Toaster
    '93 Chuck Taylor lowtops
    '12 Stetson Open Road
    '06 Bialetti expresso maker
    '14 Irish Linen Ramon Puig

  18. The following members say thank you to brunello97 for this post:


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •